Green Building Forum - Should air conditioning be banned Tue, 19 Dec 2023 05:50:42 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276706#Comment_276706 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276706#Comment_276706 Sat, 09 Nov 2019 16:48:58 +0000 HollyBush
Think Hobs will still be allowed, at least according to the BBC:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47559920

It also mentions 2025, so perhaps there is something else coming that I missed?

You are also free to re-circulate gas hob fumes, so I assume no nasties in the fumes. Just my personal experience of both gas and induction hobs are that we rarely use the extractor now, when we had gas it was almost always on.

We are unfortunate in the UK to largely live in poorly design houses and the costs to address are often high. I don't yet have Aircon, but often consider it for a few weeks in the height of summer. I will be shielding my large patio windows with a project to build a pergola cum brise soleil, and will then make my mind up. It would only be on for a few weeks when the sun is strongest, so don;t think I should feel guilty.

Perhaps a change in insurance to allow claims against poor design for buildings - especially commercial, but all really, there could be more done to enforce good design so air con is not needed anywhere. if it cleans the CO2, though, maybe that needs to become mandatory?]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276707#Comment_276707 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276707#Comment_276707 Sat, 09 Nov 2019 17:01:39 +0000 djh Posted By: LFI use gas hob and would welcome advice showing it is dangerous or that I need to have an extractor fan on for me to use it. Extractor is used for the steam and smells from food rather than the heat and combustion products of cooking - so extractor is same for both. In modern world extractor should recover the heat anyway of the air being thrown away.
There are two combustion products from natural gas - the evil carbon dioxide and *water vapour* - so yes, you need more extraction with a gas hob. Our cooker hood is recirculating anyway but we only use it very rarely; the MVHR deals with cooking exhaust pretty well.

And why do you need more than 2 kW heating in a new house? Well as long as tariffs remain cheaper at night, it's more cost-effective to turn the heaters on overnight and off during the day. So the instantaneous load is approx three times the average.]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276708#Comment_276708 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276708#Comment_276708 Sat, 09 Nov 2019 17:06:35 +0000 djh Posted By: HollyBushThink Hobs will still be allowed, at least according to the BBC
To be fair, I think LF's point was that if there's no gas heating, then connecting gas just for a hob is a lot of expense and bother compared to simply wiring an electrical hob, so they'll die out through natural selection rather than by legislation. That's the same assessment I went through and I agree with it. We have a duct laid ready for gas, but never put a pipe in it. It's another standing charge apart from anything else.]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276709#Comment_276709 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276709#Comment_276709 Sat, 09 Nov 2019 18:44:46 +0000 LF
This stuff may have nice headline "better than" figures but when you start factoring in all the peripheral consequences; land usage, pesticides, herbicides, fertilisers, mono-culture habitat loss, rural traffic, haulage in general, pollution, subsidies, etc etc those "better than" figures look decidedly ropey, in fact they are a myth.

The government will only allow 50% waste to be input into these plants for last few years which I thought correct from a taking over good food producing land was my main issue. Not sure out food is produced without some of the issues you raise.

The government do a lot of checks on the embedded CO2 emissions and transport and other CO2 emissions are taken into account in any RHI payments to the plants. The crops come very very near by. The waste product is a really good fertiliser and that goes back to the local farms It is not like Drax power station running on wood from Canada.]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276710#Comment_276710 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276710#Comment_276710 Sat, 09 Nov 2019 18:50:13 +0000 bhommels Posted By: djh
Posted By: LFI use gas hob and would welcome advice showing it is dangerous or that I need to have an extractor fan on for me to use it. Extractor is used for the steam and smells from food rather than the heat and combustion products of cooking - so extractor is same for both. In modern world extractor should recover the heat anyway of the air being thrown away.

There are two combustion products from natural gas - the evil carbon dioxide and *water vapour* - so yes, you need more extraction with a gas hob. Our cooker hood is recirculating anyway but we only use it very rarely; the MVHR deals with cooking exhaust pretty well.
...

You are conveniently forgetting about nitrous oxide, or NOx, formed from nitrogen and oxygen gas in high-temperature processes such as gas hob flames or combustion engines. Very hot topic now (no pun intended) and proven to be not so very good for you.]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276711#Comment_276711 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276711#Comment_276711 Sat, 09 Nov 2019 19:41:21 +0000 djh Posted By: bhommelsYou are conveniently forgetting about nitrous oxide, or NOx, formed from nitrogen and oxygen gas in high-temperature processes such as gas hob flames or combustion engines. Very hot topic now (no pun intended) and proven to be not so very good for you.
Well, it's not 'convenient', there was no intention at all on my part. I simply described the actual combustion products, not the side-effects. And whilst nitrous oxide can be dangerous, people still pay for it for recreational usage, quite apart from its medical usage, so lets not overstate the case. But yes, side-effect products of combustion are another reason why more ventilation is needed. Very much the same concern goes with high temperature electrical cooking of course - burned toast - frying etc.]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276712#Comment_276712 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276712#Comment_276712 Sat, 09 Nov 2019 20:25:11 +0000 tony
We have induction hob and love it, rarely use the extractor.]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276728#Comment_276728 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276728#Comment_276728 Sun, 10 Nov 2019 22:10:59 +0000 mikael Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276732#Comment_276732 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276732#Comment_276732 Mon, 11 Nov 2019 01:57:35 +0000 mike7 Posted By: mikaelIt has always been my understanding that air conditioning in cars actually saves energy in addition to being far quieter and much more comfortable. The extra energy needed to overcome drag caused by open windows is greater than the energy needed to drive the air conditioning compressor.

Not in slow-moving or stationary traffic. But when does that ever happen? ;-)

Posted By: mikaelA/C in cars is a complete no-brainer and anybody who suggests otherwise does not know what they are talking about.


Despite often not knowing what I'm talking about, I'm inclined to agree. I'd be sad to be without it, though I do wonder if car windows could - or do - have coatings to reduce solar gain, thus reducing the need to use aircon for cooling. I use it a lot in my Nissan Leaf, but for heating and demisting.]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276733#Comment_276733 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276733#Comment_276733 Mon, 11 Nov 2019 08:56:14 +0000 LF
For a well sealed, thermally efficient house the was heat from the gas hob will likely add to the ventilation and cooling load. They are about 4% of household energy use so small impact. My opinion is that domestic gas use will reduce as heat pumps/other things take over as source of heat and hot water. In our house, we reckon about 2/3 of gas is for heating and 1/3 for hot water. The cooking will be lead by changes to fueling those items.

Induction hob less heat into room. Electricity is uses is about 1.4 times the CO2 emissions compared to burning gas on the hob. This is made up by the induction hob needing less heat as it is more efficient at getting heat into the pan.

Carbon trust 2012 "The energy requirement of an induction hob is 15-50% less than that of a conventional gas or
electric hob. As less heat is generated, further savings are also achieved through reduced ventilation requirements
from here https://www.carbontrust.com/media/138492/j7895_ctv066_food_prep_and_catering_03.pdf

Gas would be cheaper to run but it is a small cost in overall scheme of running a house.

I have not gone into the emissions from the gas as I could not find any articles easily. In the room, if less than 7 kW it does not need fixed ventilation according to gas regs in UK. Hobs do not get used that much per day and are only about 2kW output. Also hours of usage are less. A commercial kitchen has interlock on fans being on before the gas comes in and things like that.
Gas is a lot cleaner than coal when its burned as the particles are not there. There will be SO2, NOx and potential for CO. The CO2 and water will give rise to need for ventilation especially in a proper thermally efficient house. I doubt it is a dominant factor.

In our house biggest air quality threat is from the smoke and fumes from cooking are caused in the pan more with my older children's activities mainly which I am sure they could manage on induction just as well !]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276739#Comment_276739 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276739#Comment_276739 Mon, 11 Nov 2019 14:02:46 +0000 philedge Posted By: mikael. A/C in cars is a complete no-brainer and anybody who suggests otherwise does not know what they are talking about.
Really? Current car had for 2 years has AC. Van before that had for 4 years, no AC. Car before that had for 6 years, had AC with no gas, so no AC. Cars before that including parents cars, no AC for 40+ years. I feel like I know what Im talking about

Dress for the weather, cut out the calories and vent fans are fine.

Car AC is a first world luxury for all but the frailest. Make no mistake, its great to have but is definitely a luxury]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276740#Comment_276740 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276740#Comment_276740 Mon, 11 Nov 2019 16:04:14 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276741#Comment_276741 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276741#Comment_276741 Mon, 11 Nov 2019 16:26:08 +0000 bhommels Posted By: LFBack to gas hob induction hob, I was reading a bit last night and backs up where discussion is at that from CO2 terms about the same.
...
Induction hob less heat into room. Electricity is uses is about 1.4 times the CO2 emissions compared to burning gas on the hob. This is made up by the induction hob needing less heat as it is more efficient at getting heat into the pan.

Carbon trust 2012 "The energy requirement of an induction hob is 15-50% less than that of a conventional gas or
electric hob.
...

It would be interesting to know where these figures come from. With the UK grid decarbonising rapidly it looks like gas will be the more carbon intensive option if it isn't already. A more serious side effect is that using a gas hob in summer can lead to discussions about air conditioning on green building forum - not saying it is all hot air!]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276748#Comment_276748 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276748#Comment_276748 Mon, 11 Nov 2019 18:09:50 +0000 Beau https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-50352588/durwood-zaelke-how-your-air-conditioning-could-help-to-save-the-planet]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276753#Comment_276753 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276753#Comment_276753 Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:11:10 +0000 LF Your comment
"It would be interesting to know where these figures come from. With the UK grid decarbonising rapidly it looks like gas will be the more carbon intensive option if it isn't already. A more serious side effect is that using a gas hob in summer can lead to discussions about air conditioning on green building forum - not saying it is all hot air!"

The gas hob was a debate about what should be banned as well as aircon, but it made me think and challenge my own views. I did not realise how efficient these electric induction hobs have become such as they are basically CO2 neutral with gas.

I like your twist about gas hobs in summer needing a bigger aircon load ... we should be outside cooking on something else or eating salads.

Where did the number come from ...
If you go further up the thread, I roughed out the 1.4 number for CO2 per kWh of electric or gas in the UK.
Based on generation of electricity from fossil fuels needing 2.5 times heat input to produce a unit of electricity and UK government figures on split or where our electricity comes from. That is why electricity is so expensive per unit of energy.

I would be surprised if the CO2 footprint of electricity keeps dropping at the rate it has in last decade because solar and wind are season and weather dependent,coal to gas is almost complete and nuclear is happening so slowly. I hope I am wrong. Where is the electricity going to come from if it is not gas for next few decades ? Or CO2 is captured from gas fired power stations. Or summer surplus solar and wind electricity is stored somehow to be released in winter ?

Just googled and this info seems to back up my calcs
They state "In 2018, these figures were 0.283 kg of CO2 per kWh of electricity and 0.184kg per kWh of gas"
This works out as 1.54 times more CO2 from electricity than using gas. So same ball park a bit higher than 1.4

https://bulb.co.uk/carbon-tracker/#:~:targetText=In%202018%2C%20these%20figures%20were,of%20CO2%20from%20gas%20usage.

Heat pumps use electricity very efficiently and will be the future of heat but on a cold windless day in winter there is likely to be CO2 released from gas generation to make the electricity for them.

The future should also not using lots of energy per day to heat inefficient houses but reducing the overall heat demand (electricity and gas demand) It is not using lots of air con in summer when proper design does away with the need.]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276764#Comment_276764 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276764#Comment_276764 Tue, 12 Nov 2019 00:17:19 +0000 tony Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276771#Comment_276771 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276771#Comment_276771 Tue, 12 Nov 2019 10:10:12 +0000 bhommels Posted By: tonyProper design can and should also do away with the need for heating systems too
Could not agree more. Most people are focused on the supply part, where demand should be addressed instead]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276781#Comment_276781 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276781#Comment_276781 Tue, 12 Nov 2019 15:35:30 +0000 tony Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276811#Comment_276811 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276811#Comment_276811 Thu, 14 Nov 2019 00:11:46 +0000 Mike1 Posted By: tonyProper design can and should also do away with the need for heating systems tooI certainly agree that it can, however there can be site considerations that make that very difficult in practice - building orientation, site shape, shading, conservation requirements, etc...]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276825#Comment_276825 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276825#Comment_276825 Thu, 14 Nov 2019 16:22:18 +0000 tony Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276827#Comment_276827 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276827#Comment_276827 Thu, 14 Nov 2019 16:56:25 +0000 djh Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276995#Comment_276995 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=276995#Comment_276995 Fri, 22 Nov 2019 08:47:36 +0000 LF
I have looked into this a bit more and ultrafine particles emitted from Gas combustion and uncertainties about the health effects are telling me that my next cooker will be an induction hob, until things become more clear.

See this thread for more details on here these fine particles where woodburners are being discussed

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16333&page=1#Item_23]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=277019#Comment_277019 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=277019#Comment_277019 Sat, 23 Nov 2019 17:30:58 +0000 RobL
They were both by Hotpoint (other makes are available!), and they looked very similar, although the induction was a bit more expensive. We chose the unit for the controls, which are manual dials on the front rather than touch buttons that I find frustrating.

I did a few experiments to compare the power of them, and the induction wins hands down. I tried boiling a large pan of water and timing it, to compare the maximum power. Then I tried a large empty pan on minimum power, and measured the temperature then pan got to. The induction hob states it has a min of 100W, and a max of 2000W, and I estimated the gas was around 200W-1000W depending on the dial setting. That restricted range matches my experience with the gas hob we had- it's nowhere near as fast, and it couldn't go low enough to simmer with the lid on without leaving it ajar, or moving the pan off the heat a bit.

The only odd thing was that the dog could hear it kick in! My multimeter claims it operates at 28kHz, nothing wrong with her hearing! All I can hear is a tick and a slight mains hum as power kicks in and out every 2 seconds of so, similar but quieter than a microwave at low power.]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=277020#Comment_277020 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=277020#Comment_277020 Sat, 23 Nov 2019 19:52:08 +0000 djh Posted By: RobLWe just replaced a gas hob with induction
They were both by Hotpoint (other makes are available!)

Ours is a Whirlpool; bought when they were the bee's knees rather than a pariah, and to be fair they replaced one faulty ring without quibble.

That restricted range matches my experience with the gas hob we had- it's nowhere near as fast, and it couldn't go low enough to simmer with the lid on without leaving it ajar, or moving the pan off the heat a bit.

I'm not disagreeing at all but your comment does point out the main weakness of induction hobs in our experience. Namely, you can't move pans off them at all. And your pans MUST be big enough to cover the ring on the hob, otherwise they simply won't work. To be fair, a good simmer is five on the scale and range is 1-10 so there's no real problem except having to discard our smallest pans.]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=277021#Comment_277021 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=277021#Comment_277021 Sat, 23 Nov 2019 19:55:48 +0000 owlman Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=277026#Comment_277026 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=277026#Comment_277026 Sun, 24 Nov 2019 08:16:18 +0000 tony Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=277028#Comment_277028 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=277028#Comment_277028 Sun, 24 Nov 2019 10:25:18 +0000 marktime IKEA induction hob so mangling the same metaphor, maybe it's horses for courses. :bigsmile:]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=277029#Comment_277029 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=277029#Comment_277029 Sun, 24 Nov 2019 10:32:29 +0000 WillInAberdeen
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B07P6Y977V]]> Should air conditioning be banned http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=277034#Comment_277034 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16306&Focus=277034#Comment_277034 Sun, 24 Nov 2019 14:09:28 +0000 gyrogear Posted By: marktimewe use the smallest IKEA pan, 120mm dia.

and mangling the same metaphor : why not just tell the lad to go out and get whatever he can find - then it will be sons's hob choice...

gg]]>