Green Building Forum - Waste Water Heat Recovery Tue, 19 Dec 2023 05:50:28 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=177914#Comment_177914 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=177914#Comment_177914 Sat, 15 Jun 2013 19:25:18 +0100 tony
I simply leave the hot water in the washing up bowl or sink until it has cooled to room temperature in the winter and on cool days, I have solar hot water so tip it to the drain in the summer, the sane with baths.

This is simple and free and we could all do it, there is no necessity to recover the heat from warm water back into water so long as it is made use of it is still heat recovery.

Any container within the heated envelope of a building could be used to recover the heat from baths, showers, washing etc and a simple timed siphon could dump the water when it had cooled, cheap, legal and easy to do.

I know that in other countries there are heat recovery waste pipes but unless regulations change here which is unlikely, then WWHR will remain a very minority sport, I do more than anyone else I know of of it already at zero cost, and as you all know I have no heting system so it irks me to throw heat away .]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=177920#Comment_177920 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=177920#Comment_177920 Sat, 15 Jun 2013 20:41:14 +0100 TimSmall Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=177923#Comment_177923 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=177923#Comment_177923 Sat, 15 Jun 2013 21:03:43 +0100 Ed Davies
Under these conditions the exhaust air from the house should exit the HRV at only a degree or two above the outdoor temperature and at 100% RH. The combination of these conditions more-or-less fixes the exhaust absolute humidity. Any excess absolute humidity above that amount entering the HRV from the house should be condensed whatever the inside RH.

The only caveats on this that I can think of are a) with more latent heat in the exhaust air it'll exit the HRV slightly warmer and so with slightly more water vapour and b) some of the heat will be lost from the HRV but not to the incoming air and c) the excess water vapour might make the HRV run a bit longer or faster with higher associated losses.]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178039#Comment_178039 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178039#Comment_178039 Mon, 17 Jun 2013 13:44:55 +0100 djh Posted By: tonyWWHR is is almost non existent in the UK probably due to water regulations making almost impossible to legally.
I don't think that's the reason. Have you looked at the price of (WRAS-approved) shower heat recovery devices?

There are systems that keep the water in a tray or suchlike until it cools. I believe the problem with graywater is that you have to clean such trays because goop solidifies in them, with resultant smell problems as well. Easy if you're doing it in the sink; only a slight hassle if you just keep water in the bath until it goes cold; a major hassle if it's some plumbed-in hidden facility.]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178095#Comment_178095 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178095#Comment_178095 Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:15:36 +0100 Seret Posted By: tony
I simply leave the hot water in the washing up bowl or sink until it has cooled to room temperature in the winter and on cool days, I have solar hot water so tip it to the drain in the summer, the sane with baths.

This is simple and free and we could all do it

The trouble with this Tony is that much of the heat a bath full of water gives up is evaporative. Fine if you've got MVHR which can control the humidity and still recover the heat, but if you look beyond the confines of forums like this you find that in the wider world MVHR is almost as rare as WWHR. In a conventionally ventilated house cooling bathwater will be a major source of humidity, which means either indoor air quality degrades or additional ventilation will be required, negating any heat gains.

Any homeowner that's actually trying to be greener is likely to have reduced ventilation down to the point where humidity needs to be controlled, so adding a major source of humidity like baths being left to cool isn't a simple option, it will need to be actively managed (ie: new hardware fitted). I would suggest that when it comes to showers it makes sense to use WWHR to reduce demand, instead of trying to recover the heat in MVHR. Baths you've got no option really, it's got to be left to cool. I'm looking at doing that in a tank when I do an extension in the near future.

I don't think it's impossible to fit a WWHR system legally, btw. I've got a WRAS-approved system I'm just about to retrofit, it slides in under the bath and in my case doesn't even require cutting any pipes. The systems in the downpipe probably need to be done at build or refurb, but there is at least one easily DIY-able retrofit system (albeit with lower efficiency).]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178097#Comment_178097 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178097#Comment_178097 Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:19:01 +0100 jamesingram Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178106#Comment_178106 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178106#Comment_178106 Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:50:46 +0100 Seret
http://www.recoupenergysolutions.co.uk/products/recoup-retrofit/]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178111#Comment_178111 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178111#Comment_178111 Tue, 18 Jun 2013 09:09:21 +0100 joe90 Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178362#Comment_178362 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178362#Comment_178362 Fri, 21 Jun 2013 21:50:37 +0100 tony Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178373#Comment_178373 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178373#Comment_178373 Sat, 22 Jun 2013 09:50:48 +0100 GaryB
Some points to consider:

1. The design of the shower head is the most important element. Handsets are available which will give a good quality shower at 6 l/min flow. Sort this out first. Even replacing the rubber sealing washer with one having a smaller orifice can save 2-3 l/min.

2. Do not assume that the temperature setting on the shower mixer is the same as what goes down the waste outlet. I have measured this and at a 40 deg C shower delivery temperature, the waste outlet temperature is 33.5 deg C. At a mains water temperature of 10 deg C, 22% of the heat has already been given up to heat the air, the occupant, the shower tray and in latent transfer. This reduces the scope for savings in using the device.

3. There are pipe losses between the waste outlet and the WWHR unit, plus pipe losses between the water outlet and the cold feed of the cylinder, even if insulated.

4. The copper WWHR pipe has to be warmed up first, plus the (normally copper) pipe between the unit and the cylinder cold feed. It can take 2-3 litres of flow for these pipes to warm up.

5. The pre-heated water present in the cold feed once the shower stops is not recovered to the cylinder. OK, in winter, this contributes to space heating, but it is lost heat in summer.

6. The waste pipe will be coated with biofilm and the normal waste pipe deposits which will affect heat transfer over time. If installed in the vertical this effect will not be as pronounced as for horizontal.

7. No water is saved using these devices.

8. Based on a claimed 68% heat recovery, a 5 min shower at 9 l/min with 33.5 deg C waste temp and 10 deg C average supply temp will save around 0.75 kWh per shower. For a 2 person household at say 500 showers per annum this will save around £18.50 pa for a gas combi boiler. A simple payback of 27 years assuming no deterioration in performance (which there will be).

I rather fear that these devices will encourage people to use 'raindance' shower heads, take longer showers etc. because they believe they are saving more energy than they actually are.]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178378#Comment_178378 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178378#Comment_178378 Sat, 22 Jun 2013 10:45:33 +0100 SteamyTea Becomes marginal there, but as you rightly say, reduce the usage only saves you money.]]> Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178382#Comment_178382 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178382#Comment_178382 Sat, 22 Jun 2013 11:24:57 +0100 jamesingram You posted info on heat loss from primary circuit, DHW storage etc. a while back , cant seem to find , any chance you could point me in the right direction.
I recall the figures were quite high, so it would seem this might be a better place for people to direct there effort before going for WWHR.
the unit seret looking at is around £200 (plus fitting and sundries) so ST's electric example might bringthe payback to around 4 years , if 68% heat recovery was achieved?
I wonder what the EROEI (energy returned on energy invested ) might be , from your figures
500x0.75=375kWh pa saved , what might the kWh be to get this product in place, cradle to grave etc. ?]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178405#Comment_178405 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178405#Comment_178405 Sat, 22 Jun 2013 19:56:39 +0100 Seret Posted By: jamesingram
the unit seret looking at is around £200 (plus fitting and sundries) so ST's electric example might bringthe payback to around 4 years , if 68% heat recovery was achieved?


Nowhere near it I'm afraid. Between 17-22% depending on how it's installed.]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178406#Comment_178406 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178406#Comment_178406 Sat, 22 Jun 2013 19:58:17 +0100 jamesingram ]]> Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178407#Comment_178407 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178407#Comment_178407 Sat, 22 Jun 2013 20:01:37 +0100 Paul in Montreal
Paul in Montreal.]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178409#Comment_178409 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178409#Comment_178409 Sat, 22 Jun 2013 20:09:35 +0100 DarylP
I think they have been dreamed up as an aid to help developers to improve the SAP rating of their otherwise poorly specced designs...:shamed:

'Waste' of time....:bigsmile:]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178412#Comment_178412 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178412#Comment_178412 Sat, 22 Jun 2013 20:44:08 +0100 GaryB Posted By: jamesingramGood post Gary , thanks.
You posted info on heat loss from primary circuit, DHW storage etc. a while back , cant seem to find , any chance you could point me in the right direction.
If someone can explain how I can post a link to a discussion, I can provide the reference requested by James.]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178426#Comment_178426 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178426#Comment_178426 Sat, 22 Jun 2013 23:42:32 +0100 Ed Davies
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787

Make sure you post as Text (select that radio button rather than Html in the “Format comment as” bit below the comment entry box).

For bonus points, you can link to the whole discussion by chopping the “&page=1#Item_16” bit off the end of the URL which makes it go to particular post in the discussion.]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178428#Comment_178428 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178428#Comment_178428 Sat, 22 Jun 2013 23:57:52 +0100 SteamyTea Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178430#Comment_178430 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178430#Comment_178430 Sun, 23 Jun 2013 07:14:32 +0100 GaryB
I overthought that one.

Links to plumbing and DHW storage threads James referred to:

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=8987&page=1#Item_30

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=9041&page=1#Item_30]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178439#Comment_178439 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178439#Comment_178439 Sun, 23 Jun 2013 09:09:51 +0100 Simon Still Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178454#Comment_178454 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178454#Comment_178454 Sun, 23 Jun 2013 10:36:04 +0100 Seret Posted By: Paul in MontrealMuch better to just fit low flow shower heads in the first place.


Of course, low flow heads or cheap-as-chips inline flow restricters are a no-brainer IMO but it's not an either/or decision. No reason you can't do both.

Even with a low-flow head I make the return on investment for fitting even a low-efficiency retrofit unit to be about 12 years. CO2e saving is about 73kg per year, at a cost/benefit of £2.65kg-1 CO2e. That kind of cost efficiency ratio puts it between insulation (£1-£2kg-1) and measures like new boilers (around £5kg-1). Windows are well over £10kg-1 (for SG to DG, worse for DG to DG or DG to TG), by way of comparison. But how many of people would dive in and do those first in a retrofit?

My figures may be skewed somewhat by the wife's love of very long very hot showers, of course. :wink:

As for potential problems: of course there are, it's plumbing! I hate plumbing with a passion. Forget hell, mucky pipes are the true domain of Satan.]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178510#Comment_178510 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178510#Comment_178510 Sun, 23 Jun 2013 20:47:36 +0100 jamesingram http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=10421&Focus=172881#Comment_172881]]> Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178511#Comment_178511 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178511#Comment_178511 Sun, 23 Jun 2013 20:51:31 +0100 jamesingram
Posted By: GaryBHmmm, I think I need to clarify why I believe the OP's proposal to be a sound and robust strategy for the particular dwelling.

Most of the energy used for water heating in the UK doesn't heat the water used by the occupants - it heats the internal space or outside (technically it all ends up outside). The lowest energy form of heating, ignoring solar or heat pump generation, is via electric immersion heating.

The primary pipework is just an additional source of loss - the water and pipe has to be heated every cycle, the pipework loses heat continuously when the primary circuit is activated and there are continuous additional standing losses by conduction from the cylinder.

Some example figures from SAP2009 for a 3 bed semi of 85 m2 floor area & a 200 litre cylinder for comparison:

- Nett hot water use: 1,498 kWh pa (no standing losses)
- Electrical immersion heating: 1,987 kWh pa (based on the 200 litre cylinder heat loss factor permitted by DECC)
- Gas combi boiler, 90% efficiency: 2,497 kWh pa
- Gas system boiler, 90% efficiency, insulated & timed primary circuit: 2,791 kWh pa
- Gas system boiler, 90% efficiency, insulated but UN-timed primary circuit: 2,852 kWh pa
- Gas system boiler, 90% efficiency, UN-insulated but timed primary circuit: 3,139 kWh pa
- Gas system boiler, 90% efficiency, UN-insulated & UN-timed primary circuit: 4,118 kWh pa
- Gas system boiler, 90% efficiency, 25mm (or 50mm cylinder jacket with gaps): 6,457 kWh pa

Even connecting up the primary circuit pipes increases the standing losses by 208 kWh pa (assuming pipework is 10mm insulated).
Obviously if the boiler efficiency is lower or the primary pipework is routed outside the thermal envelope then the losses are much worse and do not contribute to space heating in the winter.
]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178512#Comment_178512 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178512#Comment_178512 Sun, 23 Jun 2013 20:53:08 +0100 jamesingram
Posted By: GaryBIf by 'decent' insulation you mean 20mm then the pipe losses drop from 21 W/m to 13 W/m (Engineering Toolbox data) and the losses are still 129 kWh pa. For comparison uninsulated pipe is 56 W/m.

DECC permitted standing losses for a 200 litre cylinder are 2.26 kWh/day = 825 kWh pa (if the cylinder were maintained at a constant 60 deg C). SAP calcs suggest this is actually around 490 kWh pa, to allow for reduction in loss as the cylinder cools.

The standing losses due to the primary pipe connections are therefore 26% of the 'base' cylinder standing losses. A similar loss occurs in the DHW flow and cold feed pipe, so total standing losses will be:

20mm pipe insulation: 129 + 129 + 490 = 748 kWh
10mm pipe insulation: 208 + 208 + 490 = 906 kWh
No pipe insulation: 555 + 555 + 490 = 1,600 kWh

That is why mine are insulated with the equivalent of 50mm insulation...

For a solar cylinder the primary loop is in the top of the cylinder so wouldn't reduce due to stratification. In the winter most of the standing cylinder losses should indeed contribute to space heating, but are a complete loss in summer. For a rambling Victorian semi the primary circuit is likely to be routed outside of the thermal envelope for most of its length and primary losses will be losses.

The point is that use of a primary circuit increases overall energy consumption and losses.


cheers]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178540#Comment_178540 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178540#Comment_178540 Mon, 24 Jun 2013 14:54:05 +0100 Seret Posted By: tonyIt looks to me to break all kinds of water regulations to me.

I'm really not that gripped up on the water regs Tony, can you be a bit more specific about why you think it's non-compliant? And more importantly to me and my family, what do you think are the actual risks of that non-compliance?]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178545#Comment_178545 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178545#Comment_178545 Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:21:20 +0100 tony
The problems start were there to be a loss of pressure in the local mains AND there was a weep inside your heat exchanger and if there was would you know about it. Then waste water could get sucked back down the mains pipe and contaminate someone else's water.

An air separation layer is needed between the two types of water in the heat exchanger.

The regulations are more complex than this but that is the gist.]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178546#Comment_178546 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178546#Comment_178546 Mon, 24 Jun 2013 18:50:43 +0100 barney
Regards

Barney]]>
Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178548#Comment_178548 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178548#Comment_178548 Mon, 24 Jun 2013 19:01:17 +0100 tony Waste Water Heat Recovery http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178549#Comment_178549 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=10787&Focus=178549#Comment_178549 Mon, 24 Jun 2013 19:19:06 +0100 barney
It's no different to someone dipping the hoseipe into a barrel full of rainwater with "organic additives" in - the latter being potentially much worse.

You probably would need a full blown RPZ valve if it was commercial - and a robust risk assessment - but for domestic, no such issues.

There is probably a greater hygeine risk from hot tubs in the garden to be honest.

Regards

Barney]]>