Help please, from the wise and perhps legal eagles out there. Thirty years ago I bought my present plot of land and started my self build. The land in question, about 1.5 acres, was part of the neighbouring farmhouse and its last remaining small field to the rear, the remnants of a defunct village farm. Beyond that are open fields. As well as the field and included in the 1.5 acres was the old foldyard and stackyard where my house now stands. How can I find out if the field, (my field), is classed as my house curtilage/garden since the sale. Or is it still agricultural as perhaps it once was. I cant see anything to that effect on the title deeds, just boundary markers of the total 1.5 acre, plot on the deed plans. My land is fenced and when purchase I planted numerous hardwoods on the boundary, now semi mature, so the land is enclosed and not farmed.

Check the planning permission as that may have something in it about change of use / limit of use.

Thanks, the original farmhouse is not listed to my knowledge, furthermore, my furthest boundary, about 140+ metres from the house is level with my neighbours plots, on one side, which are gardens and I assume have always been so.

Don't ask the LPA

If you have the original PP application / permission then this will have the house and the plot on which it sits as a diagram. I would presume that the PP documentation that shows the house plot would be the curtilage. (always dangerous to assume)
I would agree with Dominic - Don't ask the LPA. Rattle as few official cages as possible because you never know what may crawl out.
Is not all PP now on line and I believe a lot of councils have put historic data also available on line. This may be a way to find out quietly, if you don't have the original paperwork

Ha ha I got there first!
Sometimes the historic file accessible online only has the decision notice, sometimes it has the redline plan as well. Some Councils have the old files on microfilm and you can view them by appointment in their offices.

Posted By: James NortonSo the main thing is to reinforce the residential use as much as possible: plant trees, have plant beds, garden gnomes, fish ponds, swings deck chairs, park your car etc etc (but nothing that could be considered development, or cause complaint walls, sheds etc) and keep a record of of all this usage as 'ancillary to the residential use'.

If you keep that up long enough, if you ever needed the benefit of the residential use then you could argue that the use class was residential irrespective of what a plan somewhere in a drawer at the LPA says.

That's pretty much what happened with mine. Previous owners haven't done agriculture for a long time, the area in question has been maintained as part of the lawn, there's a garden style pond, and a large timber workshop/garden store shed. All done long before my time, and long enough for neighbours to confirm it's been there for years.

Does a house that's not there have a curtilage?

More specifically, would a plot which has planning permission but for which no building has yet started (e.g., because it's for sale with planning permission) prevent the installation of a wind turbine within 100 metres under permitted development rights? If I'd done some digit extraction and chased a particular plot last autumn this would have been only a theoretical question for me because I wouldn't want a turbine as large as any on the MCS list.

I'd keep quiet and just do your own research without exposing your hand. A local guy has just had to dig up is lovely cultivated garden and return it to agricultural land after failing to gain retrospective planning approval.

One question springs to mind does the 12 year rule apply for gardens constructed on agricultural land?

Planners only have 4 years to initiate enforcement for a regular breech of planning or 10 years if it involves a change of use. After that you could apply for a Certificate of Lawful Use/Development and they could not refuse it.

However because planners don't like being done over in this way they are careful to limit the rights you acquire this way to a little as possible. For example if you put a caravan on farm land and live in it 10 years the planners would have to allow you to continue to do that BUT they would probably seek to ensure that's all you aquire the right to do. A caravan does not have Permitted Development Rights for example.

The time period starts from when the breech occurs which is when work is complete or occupation occurs not when work starts. So if you gradually build something illegally over three years you need to take that into account. You will also need to provide evidence. So if you wanted to turn farm land into garden you would be wise to plan ahead, take photos, have them signed, witnessed, dated etc and held in a sealed envelope by your solicitor. All very cheap to do and might be invaluable 10 years down the line.

Posted By: CWatters.................... You mention the boundary has been planted but is there anything between the house and the field to clearly seperate the two?

Only a mix of post and rail, and sheep netting fencing that I have erected over the years.


If you have used the field as a garden for >10 years the planners can't make you put it back to agricultural use. So have you been cutting the grass regularly and doing all the other things people do in a garden?


The field has remnants of what I think are ancient rig and furrow, plus a haven of natural meadow flora, - one of the reasons I dont want to alter it. It has never ever as far as I can ascertain, been fertilized or tampered with. It has been used variously over the years for horses, a few grazing sheep, poultry. and has always been mowed to some extent or another.

Thanks Dominic for the whisper, and everyone, I guess I'm just getting as bit nostalgic and I don't want things to change, especially the rig and furrow and the wildlife haven it, and the pond, have become.
Cheers, Mike

Sorry if this repeats previous comments or if I missed something you have already said but, as a former planner, this may be useful...

First look at your original planning consent. The site plan should show the development site and land under your control. If the two lines (usually denoted in red and blue) conicide and include the bit of land in question then you have a strong case.

Second- if you can claim to have used the land as garden land for several years and can prove it ( pics, neighbours testimony, etc) you can apply for a certificate of lawful development or a certificate of lawful use. The latter is what you want really as the former only retrospectively approves any development that might have taken place but does not mean the change of use of the land has been accepted. The rules are roughly that you can formally establish a historic change of use if:
a) there has been no inforcement action taken during the tme period (8 yrs i think)
b) you can provide evidence to support your claim
c) it is not in breach of a specific planning condition.

Check it out for yourself as I am a bit rusty on all of this.

I dont have any experience of the English system so the time period may vary (cert of lawful use requires a longer period - check with local palnning office to find out how long) but the same principle applies south of the border. You can phone them up without identifying yourself or your site or check their website.


As Cwatters points out it may be that it is seen as paddock. If that is the case then you have two options:
a) you could consider applying to change the use. Most planning departments are happy to informally discuss possible applications and will give you an indication of the likelyhood of success plus highlight any potential problems. If you are hesitant to approach them it might be worth putting "change of use from agricutlural land to garden ground " in to the LPA's planning archive to see how they have reacted to similar applications.
b) you could explore wether it is worth looking to see if you could register it as an "agricultutal holding " (I think in England it needs to be 0.4 ha to qualify). This would allow you agricultural permitted development rights tha may allow you to construct sheds etc for agricultural use. Again check for English variations. Just remember that horses are not considered agricultural (at least not is Scotland) so maybe dont mention them. Goats, sheep, chickens and veg do qualify!

Finally, if the site is out of sight and your neighbours are ok with what you want to do you might take a gamble and do it anyway. The main reason planners take enforcement action is that neighbours moan. Otherwise they dont have the time to look over every fence for minor issues. If you keep it within reason and are considerate then it may never be noticed and in 8 years or so you can apply for a certificate of lawful use. Just keep it documented to support you claim. Be warned, some LPAs are more officous than others and seem to jump on every thing. Others - including the two that I worked for - dont give a toss if they dont know about it and wont ever actively seek out unlawful development as it takes lots of time/ effort with no application fee income . They will only react to complaints.

Hope that helps

Jw

Just to add - the period may be 10 years in england for a Certicate of Lawful Use. Im not sure what you want to do with the land and if you want to build something but if not then a softly softly approach would allow you t omake you case for a cert. in a few years time.

Re. looking in the councils archive - remember that the people who administer the archive are not the planners themsleves so the fact that you look up an old consent wont tip off the planners. There are so many requests to see old files for all sorts of reasons that you wont give the game away. besides you have a legitimate right (as does anyone elso for that matter) to see public records.

Finally our LPA has no files for planning or Building Control before the early 80's as they slung the lot out to save space. They do have a few dog eared maps but the are incomplete and only show site outlines. It may be worth a dig about but if they dont have the files or the evidence to make a case against you then there is not much they can do if you brass neck it!

Jw