As you may be aware the National Curriculum is in a fluster as the curriculum is changing to the English Baccalaureate, resulting in the lose of funding for alot of vocational qualifications and the removal of Design and Technology as a core subject.
Vocational Quals such as diplomas in Engineering and Construction are now at risk of becoming a thing of the past, even though we are about to enter the highest demand for skilled professionals in both sectors, as the level 3 skilled cohort enters retirement. So what next?
I am wondering what people think could/will happen to battle these issues.

I, for one, won't be sorry to see the end of CDT, which was neither fish nor fowl, favouring the academic design side of the subject because it was easier to use a room full of computer terminals (already there for virtually every other subject taught) than equip a workshop with all the necessaries and staff it with people who knew something about the basic craft skills that feed into engineering and construction, a situation made even worse by the requirements of the HSE to keep the little darlings safe from themselves.

Not all schools were bad in its application, but few came up to the standards some of the older ones on this forum will remember as the norm. When I left school at 15 I could make any woodworking joint and turn repetitive shapes in the construction of the standard Queen Ann chair test piece. In metalworking I could wrought and forge-weld a decorative gate and shape and turn a nut and bolt that would run its length with a flick of the wrist. Everyone in a class of 13 boys (the girls were all at domestic science or needlework) could do it. But we were factory fodder. We didn't know it then because, again, it was standard, but we were literate factory fodder because our teachers were literate and wanted us to know the world they knew, and our parents wanted us to not just know that world but improve on it, and god help us if we didn't work at it.

As ST infers, an end to the overselling (and I'd suggest over-egging) of academic courses will be a good thing. In my experience, more businesses came out of the old Skill Centre system (and Polytechnics) than have come out of the new universities.

To use Damon's Approval Rating system: +1

I get the impression that fewer organisations now seek graduates anyway. The lad who laboured for the family firm who worked on our front and back paths started at KPMG the week after they finished here. Since passing A-levels last year he'd worked as a labourer rather than take time out and jolly around the world to celebrate his straight A's. Having seen the way some of his mates had gone after university he'd applied to KPMG for one of their direct entrance places and work for the relevent professional qualifications. His family are VERY well-off and could have paid for him through any university he chose to go to, but he didn't want it, preferring to work his way up THROUGH an organisation. Smashing lad, absolutely no front. KPMG know what they're doing.

I never forgot what we were told at the first OU seminar I ever attended. A degree doesn't qualify you for anything, it just gets you a piece of paper, what you do with it is down to you and luck, and how lucky you are depends on how hard you work at getting lucky. The first OU block also comprised "study skills", an element schools and colleges nowadays take as a given, to the detriment of student and learning establishment. As ST says, in the first sentence you hear on entering university now you'll hear all the buzz-words he lists.

Bring back the Polytechnics and the ethos they were steeped in.

Remember 'The Beiderbecke Tapes'? Wonderful James Bolam and superb Barbara Flynn. Bolam's woodwork teacher was the spit of the one I'd had, and I suspect he modelled him on the one he'd had as a boy.

And oh, owlman, that picture you paint is so familiar!

Back in the 80's, a worsening back injury forced me to consider a change of direction. (I'll try and keep this short, so don't pick me up on details.) A close friend worked as a careers advisor for a neighbouring education authority. One of its schools had been warned by Ofsted that its pupils lacked a basic understanding of materials and that its teaching of technology was too academic. Over a meal I'd been banging on about "kids knowing little, if anything, about the real world of work or indeed the world about them" because schools no longer taught the craft skills that gave them a sense of what it meant to distinguish between qualities such as 'brittle' and 'tough'. The friend said that she'd seen the Ofsted report in which one of her schools had been criticised for precisely this failing and that they were about to start advertising for a workshop technician with precisely that knowledge and those related skills, and thought the job would suit me down to the ground.

Six of us were shortlisted. The workshop tour was depressing, but at least they had workshops. Metalwork lathes with no guards fitted, just dumped in the coolant trays under the machines; forge piled high with tools and its extractor ducting. Woodwork workshop, all the benches pushed together against one wall and old gym equipment filling the rest of it. That part of the tour took about five minutes. The computer room was immaculate and the CDT teacher taking us round spent a proud 25 minutes demonstrating their design software. When I asked him if they planned to use the computers to introduce CNC programming and perhaps invest in a small (and even then relatively cheap) CNC machine (I'd seen one at the local ITEC), he looked at me blankly and ignored the question. I asked how much time the kids spent using CAD and, again, he looked at me blankly but did at least explain that: "We prefer to develop their hand and eye skills for design because it feeds into other creative areas." OK, why the computers then? "They write their design briefs on them." So why the CAD? "Gives them an insight into what's possible." Why the virtually abandoned workshops then? Something else took his interest.

On to the skills tests. Usually a "those left standing" phase, this one was like no other I'd experienced. A woodworking bench had been pulled out and on it were six dismantled wood planes. We were to sharpen and hone the blade and refit it into the plane. Whilst five were doing that, we would each go into the metalworking workshop and turn a taper on a length of EN19 (provided by a local engineering company) using untipped cutting tools! OK, multiple sharpenings later (Oh, and there was no coolant in the machines) three of us had done a reasonable job, three hadn't even attempted because they'd never done it before, nor had three of them any idea of how to sharpen and reassemble the planes. Six of us still went through to interview, which gave the two of us who had completed ALL skills tests a clue of what the agenda was.

Church school. Five on the panel, chaired by a vicar. Science teacher; computer-studies teacher; vicar; maths teacher; CDT teacher.

Myself and another guy had put bets on who was going to be offered the job because during the lunch break we'd all talked about our past experiences and qualifications. One, a hugely overweight guy, had just completed the OU Technology Foundation course and had enrolled on the OU Modelling With Mathematics course, he'd also done some computer programming. The other three were just bullshitters who knew how to fluff up their CV's, one only knowing how to sharpen the plane, which explained their discomfiture on being presented with the skills tasks. Only the other guy and I had actually done anything remotely connected with what was required by the Ofsted report. Now get this, the overweight guy let slip that he'd been told that it didn't matter if the person had no experience in engineering because Lucas (still a presence in the area back then) had agreed to "teach them everything they'd need to know on a two week course". What about woodworking then? Well, anybody can do woodworking, can't they.

By the time I got in front of the panel I was well pissed off. A stinking hot day and once it became obvious our time was being wasted that did it for me. I was asking THEM questions (based on what I knew of their Ofsted report, but unable to reveal too much because the information was confidential) that tested what they knew about materials, just to confirm what I more or less already knew. When the vicar asked if I'd be prepared to accept the job should I be offered it (they'd asked the previous three the same question), I said that as I was unlikely to be offered the job my answering either way was a bit pointless. The science teacher asked why that was and I told him because they'd already decided to offer it to the overweight guy who spoke the only language they understood. The looks across the tables told me I was right. And I was. The parting was frosty.

They'd obviously done enough to satisfy Ofsted because no mention of the shortcoming was made the next time around, although neither of the workshops was back in use. Perhaps it was a different Ofsted inspector.

Bullshit really does baffle brains.

It's the sort of thing that annoys me. It's frustrating because you can't explain what's missing to someone who has no idea of what they should be looking at. You only appreciate and understand the qualities of materials if you're working them. And I don't mean REALLY appreciate and understand, I mean JUST appreciating and understanding what those materials are capable of.

(And yes, that WAS the short version!!!)

I'm afraid I too have tales of woe to tell of higher education establishments (teaching electrics and plumbing) that could not stand up to the cold light of day being shone on them. Complaints to C&G are more or less ignored - "everyone is doing their best in difficult circumstances". Standards of teaching are shocking and many lecturers totally apathetic - when they can even be bothered to turn up - but I guess they have been worn down by years of neglect.

The problem with our education system is that (some) kids make it through despite the system instead of because of it.

Posted By: ............Bring back the Polytechnics and the ethos they were steeped in.

You may have heard this one Joiner, but here goes. Q. "What's the difference between a University and a Polytechnic? " A. A University teaches you to wash your hands after going to the toilet; a Polytechnic teaches you not to pee on your hands.

My proper-university-educated wife gets regular missives from the Alumni assoc. I (poly educated) (that's poly-educated, not poorly educated, though there are shades of opinion) get nothing from the poly-turned university, possibly because it does not want to admit its poly past? (or doesn't like me :)

Remind me never to eat the peanuts if Damon's at the bar first!

Posted By: DamonHD As a seasoned professional (more seasoned than the nuts), I employ both techniques at once... %-P

Wot peeing, and eating
Where on earth do you do your drinking.

Christ, university taught you that!

Posted By: DamonHDformally on the curriculum

You can do a Masters in Brewing, not sure about hand washing though.

Posted By: chuckeyThey recognise their engineers while we don't.

They also recognise the difference between an engineer who has done a higher education course and the man that fixes the washing machine, something we don't do in the UK.
Another part of the problem is that recruiters do not understand the difference, often having no training or experience in the field they are interviewing for. Sadly to employers, past experience and transferable skills mean nothing. This is also true in education as Joiner points out in his yarn.
I once spent an hour explaining the difference between a technician and an engineer to a recruiter and only mentioned designing parts for cars once as an example of what an engineer can do. She thanked me for my patiences and summed up the conversation with 'so engineers fix cars then'.
Who here has terminated an interview because they have despaired at the interviewers ignorance? I have

Posted By: SteamyTea.
Who here has terminated an interview because they have despaired at the interviewers ignorance? I have.

Then enter the ignorant, but silver tongued bullsh...ers.

Frank, The German references and experiences are very relevent here, their structured approach to workforce training seems to have stood them in good stead. I remember being surprised to learn that the daughter of a neighbour in Germany had to undergo a lengthy apprenticeship to qualify as a "kaufmann",- shop assistant/sales person. Then later, having the wisdom of their, the German, approach illustrated when we went to buy soft furnishing textiles and received in depth product information and suitability,that somehow you trusted.

ST; Dr-Ing ( doktor-Ingenieur), the German engineering doctorate does carry a great deal of respect, and rightly so. They've got it right.

Posted By: owlmanST; Dr-Ing ( doktor-Ingenieur), the German engineering doctorate does carry a great deal of respect, and rightly so. They've got it right.

Point I was making. But has not a Government Minister in German just got caught out and quit

We seem to be drifting off the subject slowly....what is the future of education in the UK?

I am Poly trained (however its been a university since before my time) and proud, with my undergrad and postgrad degrees, however even though I'm deemed an academic my life began as an apprentice Bricklayer as I flunked my GCSEs. I am now training as a secondary school technology teacher....with the hope of drilling (literally if necessary haha) sustainability into young minds, and hopefully make a small indent in the arrogance that surrounds us because of people like Camerron.

For those of you who mentioned working in schools how long ago was it? before technology had become a core curricular subject?
The main problem with the engineering and construction diplomas are they have to be designed so that the least equipped school could deal the course criteria, however there is no reason why other modules couldn't be offered that allowed the more well equipped schools to deliver a more technologically advanced course, but then where is the consistency?