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    • CommentAuthorthebeacon
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2020 edited
     
    Hello,

    i’m looking for some advice regarding installing loft insulation in a victorian house.

    I am renovating a victorian terrace house, i have already raised the ground floor floorboards, laid rock wool insulation between the joists in netting and a vapour proof membrane then laid a new wooden floor. I am ensuring everything is breathable where possible.

    I’m now looking to insulate and board over the loft. The current plan is to insulate between the existing joists, lay a new set of joists going in a perpendicular direction and insulate between them, then board over the joists so the space can be used as for storage.

    The current joists are 70mm and we are considering putting in 100mm joists to board over. We are having someone come in and do this job for me, they said to have a 20mm gap between the top of the insulation and bottom of the board to allow for air circulation. This would then allow for 150mm of insulation. I have a lot of rock mineral wool left over from the floor that i want to use. its 100mm in depth (https://www.knaufinsulation.co.uk/products/rock-mineral-wool/earthwool-building-slab-rs45)

    Breakdown:

    floor boarding
    100mm joist with 80mm rock wool insulation between an d 20mm gap for air circulation
    70mm Joist with rock wool insulation between
    Ceiling


    Is there any think else i should be considering with regard to best practice for doing this?


    Thanks,
  1.  
    Hello Beacon, sounds like a nice project, but 150mm wool insulation doesn't come close to meeting the legal minimum in England or Scotland. Best practice would be 400-500mm of wool, or thinner layer of polystyrene or polyurethane sheet insulation.

    You can buy 'loft legs' like stilts to raise the boards up above the insulation, or make your own.

    If the loft floor is stiff enough for your taste (not too bouncy) then personally I wouldn't add extra joists, which are extra weight and thermal bridges and a nuisance to get up the ladder. Victorian roof timbers were smaller than modern standards but have stood the test of time. If you did want to strengthen the existing, then the new joists would need to tie into the roof/wall structure at both ends, not just rest on the existing.

    My experience was the wool comes compressed in the packaging and didn't 'fluff up' as thick as was printed on the outside, so go for more of it rather than less. It can be encouraged by hand but then sags over time.

    Once the loft is boarded and full of stored stuff, it is very difficult to add more insulation, so do a good job of it just once!

    Don't forget to fix draughts in the ceilings while there's still access, round the hatch and the lights and where cables come up through internal walls. Also leave good ventilation gap under the slates where the insulation goes into the eaves, and insulate the pipes and tanks.

    You've presumably thought about whether to insulate the floor of the loft, or to insulate under the roof rafters incase you subsequently extend into the loft space.

    Edit to add: the work is easier if there is plenty of ventilation and lighting in the loft, both will be needed long-term, so worth sorting out early!
  2.  
    Hello,

    Like W in A (above) I'd be concerned about the additional load of the new cross-joists, and potentially of the things you may store up there, too.

    As Will points out, 150 mineral wool won't go near meeting the regs. The target in England (don't know where you are) is 0.16W/m2K. This is generally taken to equate to 270mm of mineral wool (with an assumed thermal conductivity of 0.044W/mK). Polyisocyanurate (PIR) insulation board (Kingspan or Celotex-type board) has a thermal conductivity of 0.022.

    What are the first floor ceilings like? If they are plasterboard then a tight fit of PIR down to the ceiling should not be a problem. If they are lath and plaster it may be more difficult.

    Anyway, assuming you can do it...

    75mm PIR between joists plus 75mm over, with T & G OSB or chipboard over. Should give you a U value of approx 0.15W/m2K.

    150 of mineral wool won't cut the mustard.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2020
     
    For me min 300 quilt 50mm ventilation space , new deck above that

    Personal advice is don’t store stuff in the loft🙂
    • CommentAuthorthebeacon
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2020 edited
     
    Thanks for all the feed back.

    I thought by adding perpendicular bveams it would stragthen the loft. Obviously not.

    Posted By: WillInAberdeenn.

    If the loft floor is stiff enough for your taste (not too bouncy) then personally I wouldn't add extra joists, which are extra weight and thermal bridges and a nuisance to get up the ladder.

    The joists seem ok, not great, but not terrible. we will only use the space to store suitcases, christmas tree decorations, empty boxes. We aren't plannign on storing anything really heavy up there. Are there any reletivly simple ways to streghten the joists? It's not impretive to do so, i'm just considering it.

    Posted By: Nick ParsonsWhat are the first floor ceilings like?

    They are plasterboard. But i want to keep the matterials breathable so will extend the depth of the insualtion.

    With all the suggestions taken into acocunt i found this loft stilt: https://www.ecomerchant.co.uk/loftzone-storefloor-standard-kits.html. Its 280mm, which combined with 70mm of the current joists would allow for 300m of insulation anf 50mm ventilation. Over laying with 18mm toung and groove boaords, do you think that weight will be ok up there, they are pretty heavy.

    The loft is 4.6x8.4m, so i estimate the platform being around 4.6x5m, this would leave some space to the edges (where the roof meets the eaves) thats insulated but with a platform. How much space would be best to leave between the eaves for ventilation? Is it best to taper the insualtion parallel to the roof by the eaves?


    Thanks for all the advice.
  3.  
    ''How much space would be best to leave between the eaves for ventilation? Is it best to taper the insualtion parallel to the roof by the eaves?''

    Min 25mm, and yes, taper it. I appreciate you wanting to use breathable materials - does that include not wanting to use petrochemical insulants? I ask because you could cut wedges of, say, graphite expanded polystyrene (EPS), with a better lambda value, for use at 'point' of the eaves.
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2020
     
    Posted By: Nick Parsons''How much space would be best to leave between the eaves for ventilation? Is it best to taper the insualtion parallel to the roof by the eaves?''

    Min 25mm, and yes, taper it. I appreciate you wanting to use breathable materials - does that include not wanting to use petrochemical insulants? I ask because you could cut wedges of, say, graphite expanded polystyrene (EPS), with a better lambda value, for use at 'point' of the eaves.

    Is EPS / XPS in the loft OK from a fire regulations point of view? I was under the impression it wasn't.
  4.  
    Interesting point. It is behind the same layer of plasterboard that, for example, 125mm of PIR would be on a sloping room-in-roof ceiling, so I cannot see how that's different, but apart from that comparison I cannot give a definitive answer.
  5.  
    Beacon was asking about 'best practice' which is a great approach and goes well beyond 'doing the minimum to comply with the outdated regs' !

    Most of the labour is in the decking work, it's not much extra expense to stick in another 100mm or 200mm roll of wool while you're at it. If the available loft legs are too short when combined with the existing joists, then I recall Tony makes his own from a stick of timber (?) Maybe cheaper..
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2020
     
    I have 500mm of loft insulation 200 between 300 crossways, 45x47 posts to top of insulation at 600c/c with 50x47 rails and a deck allowing 50mm ventilation
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