IMO the only thing that works is trust. If your employees are working out on site and you have time sheets then you have to trust that they do them properly without (too much) padding. Realistically the only thing time sheets are helpful for is billing for the work, but having said that you need some way of keeping track of the amount of time the jobs take so that you can balance time spent against your estimate to ensure your estimating is not drifting away from reality.

If they are going straight from home to site then you have to trust them to leave home to get there on time and not to knock off too early at the end of the day. If you have a central office then work starts at 8:00 and travel to work would be on their time, if it is on site then expect them to leave at the same time as they would ordinarily and they get to the site depending on the travel time. Occasionally turning up on site 20mins after start time on some (useful) pretext can help keep things in order.

You can waste a lot of time and effort chasing workers to ensure that there is no misuse of time but at the end of the day if you can't trust the staff to do a good days effort the only thing to do is to get staff that can be trusted. You will have to accept a %age of lost time, just that it has to be kept within reason. My father who ran a business with staff for many years had the attitude that all the staff would be fiddling either time or product and there was nothing that could be done but providing there was enough left at the end of the day for him then a (smallish) amount of abuse was acceptable and unavoidable.

As for pay, you will have to pay enough to get the staff you want and to be able to keep them and that will be down to local conditions.

What about using your vans, tools and supplies for doing their private work at the weekends - has that cropped up yet?

Posted By: revorYou may want to consider an extra payment if the job requires extra travelling time above the "norm"

surely only if the travelling occurs in their own time.
A point to consider perhaps, it is some time since I was in the UK so not totally up to date with UK tax laws,but if the employees use the company van for travel to and from their place of work is there any 'benefit in kind' implications.

Peter, good points regarding trust.

The only issue is some staff will think they work more than others and without some form of measure it is difficult to be fair and ensure they're all pulling their weight so to speak.

The office is 10mins away for most of my staff aside from 1 who lives 50mins away....

If that was the case it would be unfair on the one to expect him to do 50mins of travel each way for instance while others only 10....

If the van is used to transport company tools to and from the site each day then the worker is clearly performing a task for the company during this time. The easy solution would be for all workers to start the day by actually clocking in at the office where the company vans should be kept. I am afraid Peter's London example is a poor one if his work place was in the same place most of the time and if he were not expected to transport all his working requirements with him each day (computer, desk, etc....)

That you are not wanting to start each day from the office because 1 out of 9 is living further away is a poor excuse as you could always make an exception for that worker or stick to a hardline.

Posted By: JontiI am afraid Peter's London example is a poor one if his work place was in the same place most of the time and if he were not expected to transport all his working requirements with him each day (computer, desk, etc....)

The main aim of my post was to point out that 10 mins or 50 min is well within the normally accepted commute times and a lot less than many.
In fact the work I was doing at the time mentioned was computer repair and maintenance (much different in the early 70s) which involved travelling around customer sites in central London where we used public transport (parking was too onerous even then) and carried a basic tool kit in a purpose made case with specialist equipment (oscilloscope etc.) held at the customer site.

Yes it was quite common for new arrivals in Aberdeen to do skid pan training in a carpark, several driving schools offer that. Otherwise you learn the traditional way during your first winter here!

Posted By: Peter_in_Hungary

Posted By: JontiI am afraid Peter's London example is a poor one if his work place was in the same place most of the time and if he were not expected to transport all his working requirements with him each day (computer, desk, etc....)

The main aim of my post was to point out that 10 mins or 50 min is well within the normally accepted commute times and a lot less than many.
In fact the work I was doing at the time mentioned was computer repair and maintenance (much different in the early 70s) which involved travelling around customer sites in central London where we used public transport (parking was too onerous even then) and carried a basic tool kit in a purpose made case with specialist equipment (oscilloscope etc.) held at the customer site.

10 minute or 50 minute is not unusual for commuting and I never disputed that nor was it the basic thrust of my post. When exactly were you considered to have started your working day in London? Were you not paid for the time you travelled about on public transport from one client to another?

I think you are basically comparing apples and pears.

The other thing to consider is the original point "This doesn't bother me so long as the jobs get done". If the guy who is counting his time from his front door does as much work in a day as others who start the clock when they arrive on site, then is it fair to penalise him for working faster/harder? Or if you want to pay them all just for working time, then shouldn't he be on a higher hourly rate?

Managing a workforce is a skill all by itself, i’m hopeless at it. As a result i no longer do it. When i did ( as a site forman) you could generally trust the majority of the workforce to get on with their work and cause no problems , i might have known what actually went on but there was no need to rock the boat of good teams and risk losing the goodwill that went both ways. Those that didn’t get the work done and or caused issues took up most of my time, some could be bought in line with a few words and letting them know that i knew what was going on. The remainder were a lost cause, any attempt to help, pacify, etc was a complete waste oftime. As one boss once said , my biggest mistake was not sacking more people and in doing so getting rid of the trouble makers and at the same time putting everyone else on notice of where the line was.
My biggest job i had 85 working on the job, i could write a book , in hindsight i was totally the wrong man for the job. But equally it’s fascinating when i look back and “see” what was going on and where i was coming at it from completely the wrong angle.

Posted By: Jonti10 minute or 50 minute is not unusual for commuting and I never disputed that nor was it the basic thrust of my post. When exactly were you considered to have started your working day in London? Were you not paid for the time you travelled about on public transport from one client to another?

I think you are basically comparing apples and pears.

My work day started at 09:00 and I was expected to be on site at that time. Travel to and from work was at my own expense and in my time. Once at work the travel between sites was on company time and at company expense. Time sheets were required but more for billing customers than checking up on my actions. (The time sheets were against machine type / serial number). I either carried on from where I left off the previous day or phoned the office to get a call for first thing the next day. But then I was working in central London.

For those working in the sticks where travel times were longer the accepted practice was that the engineers were expected to travel the same amount of time to the first site of the day as it would take them to get to the firms office at their own time /expense after which the company would pay the difference. For most engineers this meant that to the first site of the day travel was at their own expense and they were expected to be on site at 09:00 (The firms office was typically further away than most of their customer sites) Engineers had the choice of either a company car or their own car against a monthly allowance and mileage.

I don't think I am comparing apples and pears, perhaps 2 different types of apples. The job was maintenance and repair of computers at various sites. I never worked in the firms office, occasional visits to the office were needed but this was typically once a month or less. Communication was by phone and I had a bleeper. (no mobile phones then!)

Posted By: JontiAt the end of the day there are pro and cons to every method. Which ever one you do decide to do you will find those who are want to take advantage will. The key is that you weed them out whilst not alienating the good ones.

+1
To keep the good ones you need to be just a little bit better employer than the competition (using the company vans for 'free' travel to and from work will help here) and pay attention to casual comments and winges and address issues before they explode. Managing a workforce to be successful is not an easy task and takes more time than a lot of people think.

But the key decision seems to have been made which that travel is paid. As to whether 39 hours includes travel or not is surely something you should discuss with your workforce though I would think actual working hours will fluctuate depending on what work is being done.

Normally workers are either given a "designated place of work" or if they are required to work at any location they are paid for travelling from their designated place of work to the site.

It might be possible to specify a list of places of work in a contract or specify "any site within x miles from head office" but I don't think you can expect them to travel to unspecified job sites on their own time. What stops you accepting a job from a customer 500 miles away?

Google found..

https://smallbusiness.co.uk/do-i-need-to-pay-employee-for-travelling-time-1682508/

"One of my employees, who travels 50 miles each way to work, is arguing that he should get paid for travelling time. How should I proceed?

Your employee is confusing travelling time during work with travelling time to and from work. There is no right to be paid for time spent travelling to and from work unless this is specifically set out within the contract. The only time you would normally look at making a payment or some contribution towards travel to and from work is if you require your employee to work at a different location from usual."

The obligation on an employer is to pay an employee in respect of their actions in carrying out their work. This doesn’t include covering the costs of getting to and from work unless you have specifically agreed to do so. Any travelling you require for work, such as visiting a customer within the employee’s working hours, is time spent carrying out work under the contract and so counts towards the time the employee should be paid for but the time spent getting to work and back is his choice and responsibility, not yours. Ensuring that time spent travelling is counted towards working hours is particularly important if the employee is paid at, or very near, to the national minimum wage rate appropriate for their age.

CWatters,

but that is where the workplace is in a permanent place. It seems to me the simple solution would be for all workers to start the day at the business premises. Otherwise you leave the employee open to having to travel long distances on their own time unpaid which is clearly unfair.

`If I were to use the Office base as the place of work (their contract currently says at any of our sites) then if they are employed for 8.5hrs a day including a 30min break

They could end up spending an hour or more travelling to the job, an hour or more returning and then after a 30minute break they may only end up doing 5hrs of work on site (not business viable)

Very tricky scenario but I need to nail down ASAP as I've now got 9 employees so consistency needs to be applied

One of the staff lives 45mins away from the Office but most others are 10mins max. Jobs vary up to 60mins really from the Office (that's the radius of jobs I accepted from the insurance companies we do work for)

WRT to emergency works, we don't cover those unless it's a real big favour

In the last company I worked for. The back by 5 rule meant the team would often leave the job at say 3.30 to ensure they weren't late coming home.

Always going to be an issue for some one way or another. Particularly the guy who lives 45mins away like I said.

The joys of running a small business 😂