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Politics: Electrifying the trains - is it green?

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    • CommentAuthordelboy
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2009
     
    So the big announcement today was the electrification of the London / Swansea & Manchester / Liverpool trains. For the full spiel see here: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/railelectrification.pdf

    I genuinely know very little about this aspect of energy, so would be interested to hear the thoughts of The Brain.

    Interesting to see on page 8 that an electric train emits 50g/passenger/km, while a diesel HST train is 60mg and a diesel Meridian train is around 95mg. (Not sure what HST & Meridian are). This is carbon (rather than CO2).

    Does anyone have an opinion on these figures? What is the power load of an 8 carriage electric train? I noticed when I was skiing that a bubble lift with 100 odd cabins had a load of 1.2MW. Not sure how comparable the two are.

    The other thing was that on page 7 it says that electricity is much cheaper than diesel. Is that really right?
  2.  
    Posted By: delboyInteresting to see on page 8 that an electric train emits 50g/passenger/km, while a diesel HST train is 60mg and a diesel Meridian train is around 95mg.


    So it's saying that electric trains are about 90x diesel? Or did you miss the m from the electric figures?

    Posted By: delboyWhat is the power load of an 8 carriage electric train?
    The load is the same whether it's electric or diesel - it's the weight that determines the load.

    Posted By: delboyThe other thing was that on page 7 it says that electricity is much cheaper than diesel. Is that really right?

    Large electric motors are around 95% efficient - large diesel engines in the 30% range. Plus electric trains do regenerative braking and put power back into the lines when they're slowing down. Electric motors are lighter than diesel engines and there's no weight penalty from having to carry fuel around, plus they're quieter and less smelly and have a flexible fuel source (i.e. use whatever you want to make the electricity whereas diesel is either fossil fuel or bio fuel (also not so green)).

    I'd say electric trains are potentially much greener than diesels, even if fossil fuels are used to make the electricity to run them (due to their lighter weight and regenerative braking). Plus when there's no more oil (or it's too expensive to burn) you can still move goods and people around.

    Paul in Montreal.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2009
     
    Posted By: Paul in Montrealdid you miss the m from the electric figures?
    No, for comparability I should think neither should have the 'm'. Electric 50g/pass.km, diesel 95g/pass/km. Compares with Fiat Panda 1.1Eco 119g/km, with however many passengers.

    So a modern average eco mini-car (not even the extreme eco Smarts etc) with two passengers is in same league as electric trains. I always think that emissions in the order of 50-150g/km are horifically high - easy to see how the kgs and tonnes of CO2 mount up. Of course that g/km accounting avoids all sorts of other questions like the embodied energy of the construction and maintenance of the vehicles and the routes they run on. Add that in, and rail sadly look very bad compared with road, because road eco-costs are distributed across so many more passengers and cargo tonnes, than are rail eco-costs.

    Posted By: delboyaround 95mg ... This is carbon (rather than CO2
    Why did anyone start talking of 'carbon' savings rather than CO2 savings? Carbon is 'harmless' (e.g. the more of it you can embody/sequester in a building, the better) - it's when oxidised it's a problem.

    Posted By: delboyNot sure what HST & Meridian are
    HST = High Speed Train aka Intercity 125, 70s design, the workhorse of the western mainlines at least, the nicest trains around in my opinion - I shall miss them, just like Concorde.
  4.  
    ...what about converting great convoys of Fiat Pandas to run on rails then...?

    J
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2009
     
    Inconceivable - handling 'feel', not VW-style foolproof 'on rails' go-kart behaviour, is the be-all and end-all of Italian cars!
    • CommentAuthorMrT
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2009
     
    The HST is diesel/electric so has diesel power generators at each end and not diesel motors. The electric traction motors are direct drive types on the wheels and are 100% electric. The 2 power cars generate the electricity and it's impressive speed is down to the electric motors. No point lugging all the fuel around if overhead wires are available and it's obviously a massive weight saving to generate the electricity away from the train. This explains the reasonable emission figures as it's more of a hybrid than a diesel.

    Diesel trains with either single or multiple engines are frankly rubbish and certainly would offer poor performance and economy.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 27th 2009
     
    All mainline so-called diesel trains have been diesel-electric or diesel-hydraulic. Only the likes of humorously-titled Sprinter 'bus on wheels' are direct diesel. Don't think diesel-electric would qualify as hybrid, as vital component of latter is regenerative braking, involving big batteries, which AFAIK they don't have - braking energy is dissipated as waste heat.

    Posted By: MrTit's impressive speed is down to the electric motors
    Do you mean 'impressive acceleration'? - that's what electric motors excel at - max torque from standstill.
    • CommentAuthorMrT
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009 edited
     
    Just trying to clear up the misconception that diesel motors are viable on trains. I'm basically saying that as the trains utilise electric motors it's even more stupid not installing overhead power lines. The trains perform worse as they carry the fuel for the generators. This is totally different to electric cars which cannot use overhead electric power lines and need to store the power in batteries. GM were looking at a car which uses a similar approach to the diesel/electric trains with a petrol generator and lithium battery system which unlike current hybrid cars only has electric motors with the obvious efficiency they offer.

    Tom, yes not strictly hybrid.
    • CommentAuthorneelpeel
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
     
    I don't doubt that electrification is 'greener' than diesel, but should the question not be...is this the best place to spend £1 Billion??
    And let's face it, if that's what the govmt is saying it will be just now then the real costs will probably end up double that.

    I know it's something that needs done, but you could insulate a lot of housing stock for £1 Billion.
  10.  
    Electric trains allow you to move stuff around when fossil fuels are being used for something more useful than burning for transport. I would think that money invested in electrifying the railways is money well spent. Then you can use whatever the power source du jour is for providing the electricity that supplies the railways.

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthorSimonH
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
     
    When I saw the figures for train emissions I was horrified.

    How can a vehicle designed to carry hundreds of passengers, across a surface with virtually no rolling resistance, very shallow gradients & minimal drag perform so badly?

    I guess the answer lies in that at peak times when a train has standing room only, they are efficient (I've seen figures something like 6g/km/passenger). But before 7am, between 9:30am and 4:00pm, and after 6:30 pm, and at weekends, they are running more empty than full. Which means if you are travelling off peak you are best to go by car!

    I had a look at the 3 carriage commuter train I catch - the power car is 45 tonnes, the rolling carriages 30 tonnes each. So 105 tonnes. Not bad when it's full with over 300 people on board during rush hour. But rubbish of you catch the train at 11am and there when there are about 20 people on it. Or coming home on the last train after a trip to the pub you might be lucky if there are 5 people on it. The main problem - between Lichfield and Birmingham it stops about 10 times. Roughly every 2 miles. So It's accelerating and decelerating 105 tonnes for the sake of dropping of 0, 1 or 2 passengers.

    My solution would be to get rid of most trains altogether, tarmac the network and only allow passenger vehicles or lorries on them. That way when there's a breakdown the buses can get past each other, rather than the "rolling cancelled trains for an hour" that we get at present. Then we can run lorries on electric too (leave in the overhead wires and run trolley buses & lorries), they can get around with out getting stuck on the M6/M1 and commuter drivers can get to work without getting stuck behind a lorry.

    I realised that a new Toyota Prius carrying 4 passengers, beats an "averaged" electric train hands down. 89g/km / 4 = 22.5g/km. So what we really need is edge of town car pool pick up point, with cycle storage & CCTV. So 3 people can cycle there, hop into their mates Prius, and get to which ever nearby town they work in.

    @Menzies "What do we need to move around?". What? Are you mad. People and goods. If I go to Ikea to buy a new book shelf, currently it's probably been sent via lorry/container ship/lorry/another lorry. Stick it on a train in Sweden and send it to UK via a "Green" rail network and the only problem then is getting it from the local Ikea to your house (assuming it's FSC certified!). Please don't tell me you expect society to give up all mod con's and not buy shelves for their books. For People - they will/can catch the train if it's more convenient/cheaper. Unfortunately for me, although it's a little bit cheaper, it's a 1h10 to get to work instead of 0h35 by car. and that's a direct train). I'd prefer to carry 3 passengers who talk too much, rather than waste my life waiting for trains. It would be better If I could catch an express bus from the train station that went along the [tarmac] track and dropped me at my destination station. If that could do it in 0:30 I'd be willing to lose 0:05 each way for the sake of having a nap. But even then, I'm not so keen on catching the bus. So would probably stick with car sharing. (of course my preference would be home working - but that's not an option).
  12.  
    Posted By: menziesI do not agree that we need to move "people and goods" around.
    You're been deliberately obtuse here. How the heck do people who currently live in cities get their food if there's no way to move goods around? Maybe in a distant future when everyone's living on the land again. Meanwhile, back in the real world for now, you do need to move stuff around. And electric trains facilitate this in the most flexible way possible.

    Paul in Montreal - where we have this thing called "winter" that necessitates moving food from warmer places until we get back to the point where people store enough for winter themselves - though it's hard to see that happening anytime soon in dense urban areas
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
     
  14.  
    Posted By: fostertomScrap the railways!
    I thought the Tories already pretty much did that when they privatized them, didn't they?

    Pity the UK doesn't have the equivalent of impeachment. Stealing citizens' assets and selling them back to them at a cost that is deliberately less than their value so said purchasers will then sell those assets at a profit to themselves as well as limiting access so that demand outstrips supply has to be seen as one of the biggest financial scandals of the last century. Amazing cajones those folks had!!!

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthorbeelbeebub
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
     
    this book is quite good.

    www.withouthotair.com

    it puts numbers to the debate

    (sorry if this link has been posted before)
    • CommentAuthorSimonH
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2009
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: fostertom</cite>Scrap the railways!
    <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/12/05/life-coaching/">http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2006/12/05/life-coaching/</a>
    <a rel="nofollow" href="http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:Bj9wsmgjgT8J:www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmtran/1317/1317am04.htm+alaN+storkey&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk">http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:Bj9wsmgjgT8J:www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmselect/cmtran/1317/1317am04.htm+alaN+storkey&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk</a></blockquote>

    Tom, I've been thinking the same thing for over 5 years (I know because I was working by Brum airport / NEC when I had the idea). NEC has about 10,000 car parking spaces and every time the spring fair / autumn fair is on, I couldn't get to work (because people were out scouring for cheap Chinese tat to import).

    I reckoned that instead of parking at the NEC, people should be parking at the four corners of Brum's motorway network and then catching a shuttle bus to the NEC. Once that's in place, you then have a strategic car share scheme that can also get people into brum/wolverhampton/walsall/solihull etc.

    What would encourage people to do it though?

    I reckon on board Espresso and Croissants/Fruit salad, plus satellite wifi That way you can have your breakfast and catch up with facebook, emails and GBF all in time you'd normally be driving. For less than the cost of a city centre parking space? And faster than a car? Probably not possible without some grants or tax breaks and green light bus lanes, but once I've amassed a small fortune from IT contracting it will be one of the potential "Green business" i'll do some proper research into.

    All you need then is some overhead cables on the motorway networks/trunk roads and you can have electric road network without the complications and chemicals that batteries bring.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2009 edited
     
    Posted By: SimonHAll you need then is some overhead cables on the motorway networks/trunk roads
    Suspend tensile camouflage fabric roofs and sidewalls from the masts, make it all disappear!

    The (very large) trunk coaches could have an upstairs with coffee/breakfast bar etc as a premium service. Costa Coaches.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2009
     
    At last - but only as 'zero emission' as the source of the electricity, which in UK ain't hydro-electric, quite likely nuclear, if not fossil.

    Anyone know if this one's capable of discharging to the grid, as well as charging? That's the key feature that will make the renewable generation plus electric cars combo really sing - not yet, but for the future. That is, will release renewable generation from the present impasse, where, for every new renewable generator, somewhere a half gas turbine generator has to spinning on standby. ready to power up when the wind drops. A vast national battery bank, in the form of that part of the electric fleet that's currently on charge, will get round that problem - as long as that battery bank can discharge a peak-demand moments, as well as nett-charge.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2009
     
    A thought - how much PV panel plus control gear would be bought by the present govt incentive money to buy an electric car?
    How much private PV investment would be needed to keep an electric car charged a) at least in summer b) most of the year c) all year round?
    Is this the way to go - all the way - rather than the govt Scrappage route, which just gets you £2k off a 56mpg so-called eco-mini car like a Panda, in exchange for removing your old 30mpg thing from the roads?
    • CommentAuthorSimonH
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2009
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: menzies</cite>Be interested to know what eveyone thinks about Nissian's new electric car, 'The Leaf':
    </blockquote>

    Honestly... a bit boring. Not enough to make me want to switch. I'm still waiting for something like a hybrid BMW 3 series coupe. In the mean time decide to run my c-max into the ground, and once I've paid the mortgage off, have a go a building my own if nothing better comes along.

    To be honest, if I wanted an all electric planet saving car, I'd want to make a statement that says, hey - you need to re-evaluate personal transport (as in weight and materials used) , so either this...

    http://www.aptera.com/

    or this...

    http://www.wrightspeed.com/x1.html

    Ok, neither is going to replace a family run around, but people who buy family run arounds don't want to spend £15,000 - £20,000 on a car and the same again on a battery pack - or a £250/month lease on the battery.

    EV's are still something people buy with their emotional brain, not their logical brain.

    The logical brain [in most cases] will reject a car that looks the same as everything else, costs more to own and run. Even for someone like me who's willing to spend more for less CO2 - i'm not going to get even a new Prius. I'd prefer to save my cash and get something just around the corner ;-)

    Anyway - back to trains/coaches, anyone heard of any co-operative coach ownership schemes? I.e. a group of commuters buying and leasing their own bus? Up to 60% of people in commute to jobs in other towns. So there must be enough potential members.

    A real target for government would be to get traffic down by 15%. Which is about what we get in schools holidays. Anyone noticing the absence of queues right now! On average, that's everybody in the country either sharing or working form home once per week. The easy way to do this is to offer companies a National insurance discount if they allow it and some health and safety exemption - assuming employees - given some official guidance will look after their own safety at home. Companies pay 12.8% on everything you earn above £110 a week. A 1% discount could save them a fortune. It means you don't have to drive to work which for the government means less road wear, less accidents (costing the NHS), less pollution (causing asthma), less stress (causing sick claims) or even less commuting by public transport and catching swine flu. Preosnally you save on petrol, parking and probably most important - time to get to work. I could quite easily work in my PJ's.

    Sensible - oui/non?

    Simon
  21.  
    RE cars, ditch the 'technical fix'. Good old fashioned diesel engine with veg oil conversion, run off waste oil. Perhaps no good for the whole population (supply etc) but hey solar alone or wind alone will not work either.

    J

    http://www.dieselveg.com/
  22.  
    Posted By: James Nortonrun off waste oil.


    waste oil...

    Posted By: James Nortonno good for the whole population (supply etc) but hey solar alone or wind alone will not work either.


    ...please do try to pay attention...

    :wink:

    J
  23.  
    • CommentAuthorSimonH
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2009
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: menzies</cite>I am having a look through the links you posted, but so far haven't found an answer to the question of how much waste oil there is in the UK, and further, how much energy this can supply...</blockquote>

    I read a while back it would be enough to run 1 in every 640 cars. So the other 639 cars will need to be either
    a) a Bus
    b) a train
    c) a bike
    d) run on electric whether in batteries or from fixed line

    Menzies as much as I'd use public transport if it was feasible/clean/faster/cheaper, I have little hope I'll ever want to spend time risking my life commuting with chavs with loud ear phones, noisy school kids, adolescent school girl jumping on seats and shouting "bitch" at each other, half retarded people with their mobile not correctly help to their ears (in the quiet zone), people who forgot to wash. Note - these aren't stereotypes, but just some of the people I had to put up with in May. It should be legal to shoot people who annoy you and then Darwin's theory might start to weed out some of the less useful members of society!

    I've tried public transport in every job I've had and given up after a few weeks when I become really miserable. My personal opinion is people don't really WANT to use public transport, but will accept it if it's tolerable and reliable.

    Would you want to use public transport if took 1h10 and you could drive in 0h40, and the driving was cheaper (assuming you've purchased a car anyway). I thought it would be good to have a sleep and/or do a bit of emailing. But actually found it impossible. :-(

    I did think maybe all public transport should be free for under 25's and over 50's. That way people who have young families and usually need to be in 2 places at once, can have the roads to themselves ;-)

    Being Devils advocate... how are construction/factory/shop/distribution/healthcare staff going to work from home? Although homeworking seems like a good idea, what about the fact that 1 person in a house with the central heating on all day is likely to emit more CO2 than driving 5 miles to work. ( I know it should be zoned, but will it be?)
  25.  
    Posted By: James Norton
    Posted By: James Nortonno good for the whole population (supply etc) but hey solar alone or wind alone will not work either.


    ...please do try to pay attention...

    http:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title=":wink:" >

    J
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2009
     
    Just some thoughts on transportation of food and people.

    Growing your own food sounds good but is it possible to get enough calories from my 3.5m by 5m North East facing garden to survive on, I doubt it. I could grow high value crops i.e. red peppers, lettuce, runner beans, but what is really needed is wheat, barley and potatoes (but not keen on them, even chipped).
    So I shall continue to go to my local store, it just happens to be a 24h Tesco, stroke of luck that is as I work until 10pm most nights.

    We could easily make vehicles (trains or cars) more fuel efficient by making them lighter, this may involve more embodied energy in the manufacture (aluminum and composites) but the payoff would be better mileage regardless of fuel type used. What we would loose is the perception of safety, it was Jeremy Clarkson who said in the 1990's that he has seen the future of motoring and it weighs 2 tonnes and does 18 to the gallon. Now either love him or hate him the point he was making was that vehicles have been overloaded by excess weight mainly because of the 'safety' equipment that the marketing people have decided that we need. My view is that most people try and avoid a collision rather than go actively looking for one, even those Corsa and Clio drivers with the little blue LED lights in the front grill (bless them).

    Out of interest my car (a 1997 Suzuki Swift) does about 50 MPG, can hit 80 MPH on the flat (just), can carry 5 people or a fridge, paving slabs, two bikes or just me. My old 205 Diesel that I got in 1987 did 50 MPH and did 80 MPH on the flat, could carry 5 people, paving slabs etc. They both sound similar to a Fiat Eco, where is the improvement in 20 years?

    Nick

    Electrify the railways is a good move and a Billion Pounds is only about 16 quid a head, bargain!
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2009 edited
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeawhere is the improvement in 20 years?
    Absolutely - any kind of IC powered device is pushing further and further towards a low absolute max theoretical efficiency barrier of around 30% (anyone confirm?), which can't be exceeded no matter how many sqillions of R&D are thrown at it. It is shockingly irresponsible that the motor industry has simply continued down that blind alley, without government incentive or compulsion to do otherwise, for 35yrs at least, since the writing appeared on the wall.

    Scrappage - provided you can scrap a MoT'd 10yrs-plus 50mpg Suzuki Swift, you can get £2k govt subsidy off a brand new 26mpg 4x4 MPV. Great strategy!
    Alternatively, in my case scrap a 170k 30mpg '94 Punto 75 which will cost £550 to get through next MoT, and get £2k govt subsidy off a new 56mpg Panda Eco - the total deal, all factors considered, costing me only £50/yr more than keeping the Punto - can I afford not to?
    (The Panda is almost the best £35 tax petrol candidate (the £0 tax C2/107/Aygo being slightly better) because honestly who wants a filfthy diesel?)

    In 2.5yrs time the govt incentive to scrap IC in favour of pure-electric kicks in, but until then ...
    • CommentAuthorsimeon
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2009
     
    Waste oil for transport is dumb. It is too polluting. Better to use it in a co-fired chp station where pollutants can be abated.

    Energy for transport needs to be sorted out for a green future. The past few years has seen greater interest in electricity rather than hydrogen which has just about all been killed off by the Obama administration.

    If the future is electric, then the UK will need a vast infra structure change to accommodate this. It can be done in a zero carbon way but it will need investment and lots of it.

    Electric trains are good but a little bumpy at 180 mph (300kmph).
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2009 edited
     
    Tom

    Actually I think that IC engines have improved vastly in the last 40 years. It is very hard to find an efficiency for a modern engine (would need to know the kw and torque figures through the rev range and mass of fuel used to work it out) but there will be a limit. Was playing Devils Advocate a little suggesting that there is no improvement, they are more drivable, reliable and quieter now.

    I like the idea of an electric car, not sold on the 'eco' credentials though, nor the short range. The concept of using them as electrical storage is intriguing. When the grid is over producing we can dump it into car batteries and loose 50% efficiency and then when the grid is low on power we can grad it back, loosing even more power, sounds like a winner to me!

    Trains could be used to 'balance the grid' in so much as they could be stopped when the grid is low, probably would not affect reliability any as in my experience a 2 minute delay in Crewe means a two hour wait at Truro.
    My Father is the electrical Engineer (who worked for London Transport once) and he told me once that an electrified railway system could be used to supplement the National Grid. This could fit in with our desire to generate more renewable electricity without totally redesigning the existing system as the railways own land, buildings and roads away from populated areas and could be its own customer for much of the power.

    Food for thought there.

    Nick

    ps Should we have a Sunday Rant section or just whack it in the Free Speak area along with Little Annie
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeAug 9th 2009
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaIC engines have improved vastly in the last 40 years
    There was plenty of room for improvement, but inherent diminishing returns make all that R&D a blind alley - could have gone elsewhere.
    Posted By: SteamyTeawould need to know the kw and torque figures through the rev range and mass of fuel used to work it out
    surely a well-rehearsed calc?
    Posted By: SteamyTeabut there will be a limit
    do we know what that theoretical limit is?

    Posted By: SteamyTeaelectric car, not sold on the 'eco' credentials though
    Why's that - the rare materials that go into the batteriers, or if fossil fuel's used to charge em up?

    Posted By: SteamyTeadump it into car batteries and loose 50% efficiency
    what happens to the lost 50%? Heat - useful? is it really 50%?

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