Green Building Forum - What is under your kitchen sink unit?

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

tony — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 22:20:43 +0000

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

This is unbelievable, client complaining of cold feet in the kitchen

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

tony — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 22:22:00 +0000

and another

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

Triassic — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 22:55:46 +0000

Mine is tiled to the walls and all pipes are sealed, so no cold feet, oh and ufh to keep bare feet warm

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

Jonti — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 07:46:33 +0000

Yep, looks like the standard practice of much of the UK building sector

Still, should not be too difficult to improve the situation with that as a starting point.

I did my best to seal everything before fitting the kitchen though the plumber I started with cut through the airtight membrane twice before I finally got rid of him. The second time when my wife told him he should not have cut through it he told her women don't understand about proper work and she should get out of his working place.

Jonti

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

jamesingram — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 10:29:07 +0000

Yep, looks like the standard practice of much of the UK building sectorJonti

Yes very common. But then most people I know don't care about energy efficiency, environmental protection issues etc. strangely they do moan about high bills though :)
It's the classic minimum effort for maximum profit. Apparently that's considered good business practice.
such mantra as "work smarter not harder" etc. are put forward by the wealthy successful types.
Unfortunately joined up, quality workmanship and finding to solution to problem outside the price remit aren't going to make you much money to buy some more conspicuous trinkets.
I deserve a Porsche God damn it!

So all that being said. How do you get trades on site to see the bigger picture ? What needs to change?

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

Jonti — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 11:15:41 +0000

We might start with a guarantee period on such works but at the end of the day it is down to education and high profile examples.

Jonti

edit. and by education I mean of the trades not the customer. I also think that with house builders there should be a check of building quality after 5 and 10 years so that people can see how well this expensive purchase will hold up.

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

DarylP — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 11:23:40 +0000

james, Attitudes across the board to profit vs effort...?
What is wrong with working hard for a reasonable return, and doing a good job into the bargain....? (serious question!)
Having been on building sites since the 1980s, I am no longer surprised by the 'we can get away with that....' attitude, trades seem to think that tidying up after themselves is indicative of a weakness, of failing of somekind?

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

Jonti — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 11:28:44 +0000

DarylP,

because we live in an age where if your business is not expanding fast enough and cutting costs quick enough it is looked at as a failing business. For a country that relies so heavily on the SMEs it is odd that the only business model pushed is that for big business.

Jonti

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

DarylP — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 11:46:12 +0000

jonti,

Yes, 'short-termism' is a chronic failing these days I reckon....
I wish I had the wherewithall to push the solutions: education, change in the accountancy rules, improved Building Regs., revised Planning Rules and more education!

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

Gotanewlife — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 22:28:43 +0000

Posted By: Jontiand by education I mean of the trades not the customer

I disagree, but then I am at home all the time so I can supervise the trades and over here the customer is astonishingly uneducated about such things so when I demonstrate some knowledge I get respect. My wife was giving an English lesson to a mid - 30s chap who sells industrial glazing system, he nearly fell off his chair when she knew all about U values...shock!

I most firmly believe in the 'Educated Customer', get that sorted and the free market will sort out the rest - even if the trades did know about such things they could still take the short cuts as above, only the customer is in a position to check all work carried out (at least in terms of the basics)

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

SteamyTea — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 22:31:57 +0000

Isn't it really a problem with general science/technology/numeracy that is the root of the problem.

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

atomicbisf — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 23:59:44 +0000

Posted By: SteamyTeaIsn't it really a problem with general science/technology/numeracy that is the root of the problem.

Even simple logic too, in many cases.

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

SteamyTea — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 08:47:12 +0000

And Or Not

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

Jonti — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 09:10:54 +0000

Posted By: Gotanewlife
Posted By: Jontiand by education I mean of the trades not the customer
I disagree, but then I am at home all the time so I can supervise the trades and over here the customer is astonishingly uneducated about such things so when I demonstrate some knowledge I get respect. My wife was giving an English lesson to a mid - 30s chap who sells industrial glazing system, he nearly fell off his chair when she knew all about U values...shock!

I most firmly believe in the 'Educated Customer', get that sorted and the free market will sort out the rest - even if the trades did know about such things they could still take the short cuts as above, only the customer is in a position to check all work carried out (at least in terms of the basics)

No, I disagree I have met very few tradesmen who view green technology and modern, high quality construction as anything else other than 'hocus pocus'.

It is difficult to build what you do not know about, understand or even believe in. I do not think it is realistic to expect 'Joe Public' to understand all the details of all the trades and be there through the construction of the house all the time. I do expect tradespeople to understand their trade but very few seem to.

If the motor mechanic trade were as poor as the building trade in quality of workmanship then there would be an outcry due to the high level of deaths. This is something that needs the industry to fix. First quality which leads then secondly to profit.

Jonti

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

Ed Davies — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 10:27:12 +0000

Agree that â€˜Joe Publicâ€™, as Jonti puts it, shouldn't need to be involved in the details. But there is a general problem of expectation - not realizing that a house that needs a huge boiler running nearly continuously from the middle of October to some time in May is broken.

E.g., the â€œOther Half - Needs to brought up to dateâ€ thread:

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=11720

To extend the motor mechanic analogy: it's as if people still had the same expectations of comfort, reliability and safety of cars as was appropriate in the 1950s. If that was people's expectation the motor trade would drop to that level.

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

SteamyTea — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 10:34:08 +0000

Posted By: Ed DaviesIf that was people's expectation the motor trade would drop to that level.

Except the manufactures insist that their franchised dealers have a minimum standard of trainings and equipment. The franchisee cannot negotiate on this if the wish to stay a dealer.
Maybe the building trade should adopt a similar model.

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

Jonti — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 11:14:40 +0000

Posted By: Ed DaviesAgree that â€˜Joe Publicâ€™, as Jonti puts it, shouldn't need to be involved in the details. But there is a general problem of expectation - not realizing that a house that needs a huge boiler running nearly continuously from the middle of October to some time in May is broken.

Ed,

You are quite right. If you were to make people understand that they should expect housing built to a standard that means they would cut the heating bill to almost Â£0 and this at no increase in housing costs then there might be a customer driven change.

However, nobody seems interested in promoting this fact. The media love a bad story because it sells well but are not interested in promoting solutions and best practice. Building industry is happy to make its profits with substandard buildings. The individual trades hold each other in such contempt that there is no chance of anysort of collaboration there.

Only government is in a position to force the changes necessary but it is more interested in ticking boxes and getting the money in.

Jonti

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

SteamyTea — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 11:21:50 +0000

Posted By: JontiOnly government is in a position to force the changes necessary but it is more interested in ticking boxes and getting the money in.

But it is the public that vote the government in (and out). So we get the government we deserve.

Looked under my kitchen sink and found some old energy saving lightbulbs, and some Ecover.

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

Jonti — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 11:35:05 +0000

ST, unfortunately you are right. The problem is most people do not realise what they should be demanding on the one side but on the other side the government is there to look after the best interests of the public not to do the publics bidding.

The public does not understand what is in its best interests and the government doesn't really care

Jonti

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

DarylP — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 11:51:39 +0000

Jonti,

The Govn't only care about themselves, and the house-builder model still serves the big companies well, profits up.....

Nothing is going to change until fuel bills rise (a lot!) and wallet-driven changes are required/expected?

Look at the London Congestion Charge exemption, and what it has done for Prius & Leaf sales....

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

SteamyTea — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 12:52:26 +0000

Posted By: DarylPLook at the London Congestion Charge exemption, and what it has done for Prius & Leaf sales....

That is an interesting question. Is it the government cash back, the congestion charge or the desire by some individuals to 'save the planet' that have boosted sales, or is it the price of fuel, cheap financing, driving experience that has done it.

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

owlman — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 15:50:41 +0000

Probably a little bit of them all ST. Things rarely have one single cause just an accumulation.

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

HollyBush — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 16:21:38 +0000

Perhaps help could be a bit more obvious - we could all be encouraged to be part of Building Control whilst the building is constructed or changed. Local government could produce checklists for certain types of work and ask you check things as the work progresses, at least this would help educate both sides.

If we wanted I guess it could go a step further and where there is an issue this is required to be raised with BC to get to the bottom of, or the client has to sign a disclaimer accepting the associated risks and knock-on effect to sales?

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

HollyBush — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 16:23:56 +0000

Diverting some of the green funds to improve Building control and kit them out with Thermal Imaging cameras, training and with enough staff to police energy saving might be quite effective...

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

atomicbisf — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 17:34:57 +0000

Posted By: Ed DaviesAgree that â€˜Joe Publicâ€™, as Jonti puts it, shouldn't need to be involved in the details. But there is a general problem of expectation - not realizing that a house that needs a huge boiler running nearly continuously from the middle of October to some time in May is broken.

E.g., the â€œOther Half - Needs to brought up to dateâ€ thread:

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=11720

To extend the motor mechanic analogy: it's as if people still had the same expectations of comfort, reliability and safety of cars as was appropriate in the 1950s. If that was people's expectation the motor trade would drop to that level.

That's an excellent analogy I think.

To make real progress I believe that the public's expectations need to be lifted by public information (unfashionable as that may be, bring up images of Mr Cholmondley-Warner etc) so that it has enough understanding to insist on what is in its interests.

Ed

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

DarylP — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 17:41:37 +0000

If the car analogy holds water, what has driven the increase in car performance, both in MPG & MPH do you think?

House-wise, builders and still building (and we are still buying) 1970s Morris Marinas and Hillman Hunters......

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

markocosic — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 17:53:39 +0000

-Fuel duty
-Short lifecycles
-Performance based marketing (in addition to looks based marketing)

Appliances are a more relevant example - efficiency gains there were driven by a stricter regulatory regime.

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

SteamyTea — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 18:04:03 +0000

Posted By: DarylPHillman Hunters

We had a Roots Franchise in 1964, the sporty version was the Singer Gazelle, which was better know as the Guzzler.
I think you have to look to the competition in the automotive industry to see what happened. In 1972 my parents bought two new cars and my Father had a company one.
One was a Renault 12 (good ground clearance), another was a Toyota Corolla (FM/AM radio as standard and light to drive). The company car was a DAF66 (went as fast backwards as forwards). Where we lived there was no UK built car dealership.

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

Jonti — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 18:07:22 +0000

But when people buy a house they only look at the visual. No one ever buys because it has a better energy report.

Trying to improve the quality of buildings through B. Regs is not going to work as most houses built by the big builders may get passed by B. Regs but certainly do not meet the standards.

It needs the tradesmen to be properly educated. To take the car analogy, trying to get the building industry to build with modern methods to achieve modern standards is like getting a village mechanic from the 1940,s to do repairs and servicing on your new hybrid.

Maybe if some company starts offering kit houses to German standards and at realistic prices then maybe this will begin to change things as you can get a smaller local firm to do the ground work and each build will be individually looked at.

Jonti

What is under your kitchen sink unit?

owlman — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 18:57:58 +0000

Posted By: JontiBut when people buy a house they only look at the visual. No one ever buys because it has a better energy report.

True; and TV progs. like "Homes under the Hammer" and other make over programmes don't help either with their almost exclusive emphasis on cosmetic "tarting up", and no consideration on insulation improvement to the building fabric. Then we do generally buy houses as investment, and not forever homes. So the maxim is make it look good, sell, and move. Think about energy saving bit when you get to one you intend to keep.