Green Building Forum - Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" Tue, 19 Dec 2023 07:35:36 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257042#Comment_257042 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257042#Comment_257042 Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:52:23 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: mw116Surely it would be better to base it on kWh/occupant…ideally, yes, but it's difficult to determine what occupancy will happen in practice so finished-floor area is used as a proxy.]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257043#Comment_257043 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257043#Comment_257043 Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:21:05 +0100 anth.payne
At the end of the day PH is just a voluntary additional layer of BR.]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257045#Comment_257045 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257045#Comment_257045 Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:02:28 +0100 gravelld Posted By: anth.payneSurely the argument here should have nothing to do with PH, but simply to tighten up BR to demand better insulated homes, that will reduce the buildings demand on resources and the environment...

At the end of the day PH is just a voluntary additional layer of BR.I'm not sure I agree with that. It's a completely different level of rigour and QA to BRs, a different approach to measurement and a different relationship between assessor and assessed, and probably more things I can't think of right now.]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257046#Comment_257046 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257046#Comment_257046 Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:06:48 +0100 gravelld Posted By: barneyOK, so terrible by what metric ?It's a good point - some measurement would be handy to see how bad the problems are. But who would do them? The nationwide organisations are already embedded in the current market dynamic, and don't want to rock the boat. Anybody I haven't thought of?

But I can turn it around:

Posted By: barneyA Part L, Part F compliant house built today at a reasonable cost is still a reasonably well performing building as an entity - greening the grid makes it more so (as would excess electricity to gas production)
Compliant by which metric? Do you have proof these buildings are compliant?]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257047#Comment_257047 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257047#Comment_257047 Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:40:09 +0100 fostertom Posted By: gravellda completely different level of rigour and QA to BRs, a different approach to measurementNot just that, but the most readily available, best developed, most reliable methodology to be sure that high levels of insulation and airtightness don't cause mould, rot within the wall/roof structures and mould, poor air quality and overheating in the interior. All of these are well-reported risks, with simply
Posted By: anth.paynedemand[ing] better insulated homes
Some serious technical hoops have to jumped through and for the time being PHPP is by far the most accessible, reliable best to assess result - even though there are other approaches than PH, which may in fact supercede PH one day.]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257050#Comment_257050 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257050#Comment_257050 Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:53:36 +0100 barney
Well, two different things

The current metric is basically derived from the EU metrics in the EPBD via SAP and SBEM - ie no more fuel and power than considered reasonable

Proof that the buildings are compliant - none at all, and I suspect many perform far worse than predicted - certainly many of the commercial buildings don't ever perform as predicted. Remember that snake and mongoose issue I mentioned - at design we can massage all sorts of thinks via Level 5 Dynamic simulation - even to the point of reducing air tightness to address overheating risks

However, generally, in the housing sector, that's an enforcement issue rather a need to adopt a new set of requirements

Regards

Barney]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257051#Comment_257051 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257051#Comment_257051 Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:59:29 +0100 barney
Just adding insulation isn't always a reasonable thing to do as it brings along some risks that may well be too difficult to overcome within a particular price envelope - which takes us back to planning issues actually - what is a house buyer actually buying - it's not just 4 walls and a roof, that's for sure

Personally speaking, if we hit 50,00 homes per annum compliant with a minor tweaked Part L and built to meet those standards, they would be pretty efficient homes that will stand for a reasonable lifespan

Regards

Barney]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257052#Comment_257052 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257052#Comment_257052 Wed, 12 Apr 2017 18:19:47 +0100 fostertom Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257058#Comment_257058 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257058#Comment_257058 Thu, 13 Apr 2017 09:46:06 +0100 gravelld Posted By: barneyHowever, generally, in the housing sector, that's an enforcement issue rather a need to adopt a new set of requirements
But surely this is partly enforcement? If you don't get your Ph certification, and you won't if there's a performance gap, no pass and you can't sell the house.

Currently if you're a volume house builder all you have to do is type up a design SAP send it to a box checker and you're done. If you're unlucky you get a proper inspection. 1/4 (or is it a 1/3 now?) of houses get an air tightness test, in which case just send whoever seems idle on site to tape and mastic up a few gaps to meet the appalling requirements, then get rid of the tape later when the carpet fitters arrive.

Given the tester and the assessor work for you as the house builder there's a clear conflict of interest.

Different level.]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257120#Comment_257120 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257120#Comment_257120 Fri, 14 Apr 2017 16:42:36 +0100 CWatters
There is no way the Government will agree to making _all_ new houses meet the proprietary PassivHaus standard and I think it would be better to tighten up the building regs in general rather than require only a percentage of new houses to meet any particular tighter standard.]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257124#Comment_257124 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257124#Comment_257124 Fri, 14 Apr 2017 18:49:35 +0100 fostertom Posted By: CWattersno way the Government will agree to making _all_ new houses meet the proprietary PassivHaus standardSure in this England but it's happening in parts of Eire 'or equivalent', and wouldn't be surprised in Wales and Scotland]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257129#Comment_257129 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257129#Comment_257129 Fri, 14 Apr 2017 21:36:23 +0100 djh Posted By: fostertom
Posted By: CWattersno way the Government will agree to making _all_ new houses meet the proprietary PassivHaus standard
Sure in this England but it's happening in parts of Eire 'or equivalent', and wouldn't be surprised in Wales and Scotland
I have some sympathy with the 'proprietary' description but I think the reason the UK government won't adopt it, or even consider it as an alternative, is that it can equally well be described as 'independent' and in politically-correct terms as 'evidence-based'. The UK building regulations, strategy and tactics has been so thoroughly captured by vested interests that it is unthinkable. Other places are better. The one good feature of UK regulation is that it is requirements-based rather than codified like many continental systems, which allows a great deal of flexibility in some circumstances.]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257131#Comment_257131 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257131#Comment_257131 Fri, 14 Apr 2017 22:01:06 +0100 fostertom Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257132#Comment_257132 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257132#Comment_257132 Fri, 14 Apr 2017 22:02:53 +0100 djh
edit: oh and there are codified parts of the regs, like water regs GRR and ventilation guide GRR and ...]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257138#Comment_257138 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257138#Comment_257138 Fri, 14 Apr 2017 23:53:51 +0100 fostertom Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257140#Comment_257140 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257140#Comment_257140 Sat, 15 Apr 2017 06:59:09 +0100 gravelld
I'm pretty shocked how many people seem too think BR++ are enough.

Like many institutions here, it's the whole structure that's wrong.]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257143#Comment_257143 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257143#Comment_257143 Sat, 15 Apr 2017 08:23:43 +0100 SteamyTea Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257145#Comment_257145 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257145#Comment_257145 Sat, 15 Apr 2017 09:27:53 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: gravelldIs it requirements based? The requirements currently are U values...There are U-value requirements for individual elements. However, the limiting factor is the overall house emissions as calculated by SAP - if you made all the floors, walls, roofs, windows, doors, etc, to the required U-values the house wouldn't pass. There's an awful lot wrong with the details (IMHO) but that basic approach seems sound to me.

I'm pretty shocked how many people seem too think BR++ are enough.
BRs wouldn't be too bad if they were enforced and if airtightness was a lot better. Just writing down lower U-values in BRs wouldn't solve anything. Similarly, saying things are “Passivhaus” if that's not checked properly wouldn't help much, either.]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257159#Comment_257159 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257159#Comment_257159 Sat, 15 Apr 2017 14:40:24 +0100 DarylP If you build to the 'recipe' or reference values, you will pass.
Cheers:smile:]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257165#Comment_257165 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257165#Comment_257165 Sat, 15 Apr 2017 16:40:26 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: DarylPEd, the values to which you refer are 'backstop' values, maximums allowed. NOT targets!Agreed. How's that different from what I wrote?

If you build to the 'recipe' or reference values, you will pass.
Which recipe values do you mean? TER, etc? Not AD L1A Table 2 “Limiting Fabric Parameters”, I assume:

Building Regs approved document L1A2.33 Table 2 sets out the limiting standards for the properties of the fabric elements of the building. Each stated value represents the area-weighted average for all elements of that type. In general, to achieve the TER and the TFEE rate, a significantly better fabric performance than that set out in Table 2 is likely to be required.
]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257188#Comment_257188 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257188#Comment_257188 Sun, 16 Apr 2017 13:58:26 +0100 CWatters Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257191#Comment_257191 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257191#Comment_257191 Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:58:29 +0100 fostertom Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257192#Comment_257192 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257192#Comment_257192 Sun, 16 Apr 2017 20:02:35 +0100 Peter_in_Hungary Posted By: CWattersI'd be surprised if EU competition regs allowed governments to mandate a proprietary standard rather than their own equivalent.
And Brexit means that EU regs shortly won't apply]]> Petition to "Make the PassivHaus standard mandatory for new buildings in the UK" http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257194#Comment_257194 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15037&Focus=257194#Comment_257194 Sun, 16 Apr 2017 20:13:33 +0100 fostertom