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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorahpotty
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2011
     
    Can anyone help with either the answer or calculations necessary to INTERNALLY upgrade my Victorian brick sold wall construction with an EXISTING U/value of 2.1 to 0.1.

    I have lists of Green materials available but don't know what thickness to go for.
    annie
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2011
     
    You'd need ~120mm of aerogel at ~£300/m^2, and anything else is going to need at least twice the thickness, ie at least 1/4 metre depth, though should be cheaper, for the same effect.

    Rgds

    Damon
    • CommentAuthorahpotty
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2011
     
    Thanks - Not heard of Aerogel. Is there a formula? I was hoping to go for a green option rather than say kingspan.
    annie
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2011 edited
     
    have a play with http://www.vesma.com/tutorial/uvalue01/uvalue01.htm
    200mm Phenolic might do it.
    remember the first 50mm of insulation does most of the work
    very approx for phenolic
    no insulation U=2.10 Wm2K
    50mm U= 0.34
    100mm U=0.18 , thats far better than current regs.
    200mm U=0.10

    Also hows your wall going to react to being cold and damp when its used to heat travelling through it for the last 100 years
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2011
     
    http://www.uvalue.co.uk/

    Ah the old condensation problem, I have no answer to that as yet.
  1.  
    If you want a 'green' material 400mm of warmcell (recycled new paper) might get it to U=0.1
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2011
     
    Aerogel is arguably quite green in its low footprint for manufacture, for example. Here's a couple of notes of mine on my aerogel internal insulation of our livingroom (starting from better U values than you and not aiming so low either, given other aspects such as windows that may swamp improvements in the walls):

    http://www.earth.org.uk/note-on-Spacetherm-aerogel-thermal-insulation.html

    http://www.earth.org.uk/superinsulating-our-living-room.html also as http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/24/diy_insulation_with_aerogel/

    I intend to do another round of aerogel this autumn if possible, in bedrooms this time.

    Rgds

    Damon
  2.  
    I think all insulation could be considered quite 'green' , as even with the petrochemicial derived products the posistives in energy saving quickly out way the embodied energy and environmental damage caused in manifacturering and end of life disposal.
    Better to make insulation out of it to reduced the need to burn it for heating
    •  
      CommentAuthorDamonHD
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2011
     
    Also very true, though some might worry about residual solvents, etc, leaching out of particular products.

    Rgds

    Damon
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2011
     
    As for the condensation problem, if you insulate internally, and there is no gap between the wall and insulation (glued in place), would that not be similar to just dropping the internal temperature down as far as the wall is concerned?
    If there is a point within the wall that hits the dewpoint, that point will just move inward. As long as it does not affect the materials used I cannot see that it is a problem in normal operating temperatures, extremes are always different and dificult.

    As you want to insulate soon, this is an idea tile to improve the airtightness as well.
  3.  
    Yes , such as flame retardence etc.
    I guess its a case of weighing up, insulation levels, available budget, potential environmental negatives of product, available space, praticiality of installation and effect on the building fabric.
    • CommentAuthorbrig001
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2011
     
    If you go too far, could you risk condensation on the first floor joist ends?
    There would also be a thermal bridge there which would have to be included - were you planning to insulate the gap between ground floor ceiling and first floor?
    Assuming two storey of course...

    Brian.
    • CommentAuthorahpotty
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2011
     
    At the moment there is no insulation between ground floor and 1st floor ie nothing between the joists.

    The outside brick is painted (not lime I'm afraid).
    • CommentAuthorahpotty
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2011
     
    I am hoping the external walls have no damp.

    I do have a problem with damp issues on internal walls and a builder thinks the last owner may have unwittingly caused this. A rotten wooden floor was replaced with a solid floor and DPC. This may be causing damp to migrate up the walls. All the external walls were dampproofed, I think with an injection into the brickwork.
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeAug 21st 2011
     
    Internally upgrading an existing victorian solid wall constuction to 0.1 is not a simple matter. 0.1 is passivehaus levels and needs at least 300mm of insulation. It's also largely pointless doing more than 80mm or so unless you go to a lot of trouble to remove thermal bridges (floor to wall connection, window reveals, joist ends, internal walls conecting to external walls, door thresholds, windowsills, lintels).

    Very high levels of internal insulation a) take up a lot of space and b) present risks of eventually damaging he external structure (because if it gets wet it'll stay wet). Such passivehaus conversions have been done but it's not just a matter of slapping up some insulation. Do your research and modelling carefully. External insulation is a much better plan if you can manage it, although thermal bridging can be even harder to treat at footings.
  4.  
    The U-value of your wall may not be as bad as you think! I would guess that the actual U-value is closer to 1 than 2 W/m.K. We've lately tended to not insulate existing walls but have concentrated on the roof, floor and windows. In order to conpensate for heat-lost through the walls we've started using Solar Roof's with Solar Slab heat stores.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2011 edited
     
    look at
    http://www.viking-house.co.uk/victorian-solar-house.html
    Was amazed, no mention of insulation in the walls (or am I wrong Viking House?)
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2011 edited
     
    The existing wall U value of your solid brick wall is taken as is 2.1W/m2K. BRE convention and all that. That means it has a thermal resistance of 1/2.1 = 0.476 m2K/W.
    For a U value of 0.1W/m2K you will need a total resistance of 1/0.1 = 10m2W/K. So its a simple (!) matter of making up that shortfall of 9.524m2K/W resistance with insulation plus a bit of plasterboard although the gypsum will contribute little.
    To get the thickness of insulation you multiply the resistance required, here 9.524 by the thermal conductivity of the insulation of choice.
    So as Damon says you will need 125mm Aerogel Spaceloft or 210mm phenolic or 300mm graphite enhanced EPS or 275mm XPS or 230mm PIR or 600mm Sempatap.
    If you read "Breaking the Mould" by Joseph Little, the Dublin based architect, you will see that the guidance for insulating older properties, and this is gaining favour, is obvioulsy not to ignore the wall insulation but rather don't overinsulate for the reasons that Wookey refers to in his posting. The school of thought is that a U value of 0.5W/m2k will possibly prove safer to the building fabric in the long run than insulating excessively
  5.  
    And the sempatap is available on a grant where I live.:devil:
    • CommentAuthorseanie
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2011
     
    Sempatap has long been recommended by the Energy Saving Trust. But it's recently been joined by another product; 'Marmox'

    http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Find-Energy-Saving-Trust-Recommended-Products/browse/insulation/internal-wall-insulation

    What kind of process is required to gain EST recommendation?
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeAug 22nd 2011 edited
     
    Sempatap and Warm-a-wall used to have their own section on the EST website "Flexible internal wall insulation". Marmox is not really flexible unless it is scored to enable it to bend. They do all however share one thing a fairly poor thermal insulation value but then again their purpose is more condensation control
  6.  
    • CommentAuthorseanie
    • CommentTimeAug 23rd 2011
     
    Most of the walls tested in that research were solid stone, not brick. I'd be careful drawing too many conclusions about Victorian brick walls in general.
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeAug 23rd 2011
     
    That's a well known report and shows principally that the in situ U values for massive walls of sandstone, granite, rubble are typically better than calculated. Many of them are 600mm thick and so you'd expect a better U value than for 9" brickwork.
    I'm not aware that they even measured a 9" solid brick wall.
    Its easy to estimate the U value for a solid brick wall, the thermal conductivity of the brickwork is around 0.7W/mK so the R is around 0.3 add on a bit for air resistances and plaster say 0.18 gives 0.48m2K/W so the U value is around 2.0W/m2K
    • CommentAuthorsinnerboy
    • CommentTimeAug 23rd 2011
     
    This article should be studied carefully.

    http://www.josephlittlearchitects.com/documents/Breaking_the_Mould_5_Construct_Ireland_Issue_12_Vol_4.pdf

    Under no circumstances should one attempt Passive levels with dry lining. Interstitial condensation would occur at such a rate that the wall would saturate quickly. Mould growth would be the least of ones problems. You would quickly ( within 5 years) be looking at timber rot and consequent structural failure.
    • CommentAuthorsinnerboy
    • CommentTimeAug 23rd 2011
     
    I would look to insulate no better than 0.5 W/m2K and make damn sure that my Victorian

    DPCs
    Brickwork pointing
    Gutters
    Cills
    Flashings

    were routinely maintained to ensure the brick wall fabric did not also absorb undue amounts of rain water penetration.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeAug 23rd 2011 edited
     
    Posted By: sinnerboyI would look to insulate no better than 0.5 W/m2K


    I'm not sure the Building Regs allow you to insulate an existing wall that badly :-)

    I think the worst it can be is around 0.3 but I haven't been back to check Part L.
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeAug 23rd 2011 edited
     
    Posted By: SaintThe school of thought is that a U value of 0.5W/m2k will possibly prove safer to the building fabric in the long run than insulating excessively


    Actually quoting myself posted before Sinnerboy, this is where real life experience counters (political) good intent. Yes 0.30W/m2K is the Part L requirement if you renovate more than 25% of your existing walls. In Ireland the requirement has been 0.27W/m2K and they are already seeing issues with this
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeAug 23rd 2011
     
    Here is someone who has renovated their victorian terrace to passivhaus standards, including 130mm of internal insulation on the front facade: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/02/passivhaus-renovation-of-heritage-home.php
    acheiving U=0.1 http://ecohome.tumblr.com/page/5
    • CommentAuthorseanie
    • CommentTimeAug 23rd 2011
     
    From the article;

    "But there is another problem with interior insulation of this magnitude: heat loss through the exterior walls will be virtually eliminated. A little bit of heat loss through old brick walls drives out moisture; if you get rid of it completely, there is the possibility of freeze-thaw cycles causing the brick to deteriorate. Fortunately London doesn't get too many of these."

    Well I think that pretty much answers any concerns about IWI.
   
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