Green Building Forum - Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. Tue, 19 Dec 2023 07:38:12 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163037#Comment_163037 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163037#Comment_163037 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 13:16:03 +0000 jamesingram We found five well known High Street shops that appear to be paying a fairer amount of tax.
Debenhams - Paid 22% tax on its profits for 2012.
Debenhams online offers everything from fashion to furniture.
John Lewis - Paid 35% tax on its profits for 2012.
John Lewis online offers virtually everything that's available on Amazon with the exception of books.
Lush – Paid 42% tax on its profits for 2011.
Lush online offers an extensive range of handmade cosmetics.
Marks and Spencer – Paid 27% tax on its profits for 2012.
Marks and Spencer online offers everything from frocks to food.
Next – Paid 26% tax on its profits for 2012.
Next online offers everything from evening wear to electricals.

Of course we always recommend that you support your local shops before you hit the big High Street chains."

http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/boycotts/boycottamazon/amazonshoppingalternatives.aspx

Over the last few year I've tried to buy my xmas gifts in a 1 mile radius of home, though I think using the various
online/postal delivery retailers could well be more environmental efficient as i presume they use less premises (energy) to get product from manifacturer to end user and also deliver via an existing postal network.
Be interesting to hear the arguement for either model.]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163044#Comment_163044 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163044#Comment_163044 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:21:25 +0000 Seret
Either way, it's one for HMRC to sort out if required,I don't see the need to do anything as consumer. If people want to shop elsewhere that's great, but I find Amazon to be one of the best services around.]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163047#Comment_163047 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163047#Comment_163047 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 15:05:11 +0000 Ed Davies
That doesn't actually tell you a lot, does it? Isn't the main way of avoiding tax to arrange things such that you appear to have very small profits (at least in this country)?]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163054#Comment_163054 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163054#Comment_163054 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 16:48:49 +0000 jamesingram Posted By: Ed Davies“XXXX paid yy% tax on its profits”.

That doesn't actually tell you a lot, does it? Isn't the main way of avoiding tax to arrange things such that you appear to have very small profits (at least in this country)?

Yes , I'd be far happier paying 25% on my £10,000,000 in a UK bank, rather than 5% on my £200,000,000 that's
off shore :wink:

I must admit i find amazon a good service also , especially compared to some chain shops.
I was wonder , does, is the online retailer model less environmental negative than the multiple shop model or even the small time single trader?]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163056#Comment_163056 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163056#Comment_163056 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:01:05 +0000 SteamyTea And
http://www.accountancyage.com/aa/news/2224734/scrap-corporate-taxes-and-revolutionise-system]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163057#Comment_163057 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163057#Comment_163057 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:09:15 +0000 Seret Posted By: jamesingramis the online retailer model less environmental negative than the multiple shop model or even the small time single trader?

I was wondering that myself. Certainly it would make the last few miles of the logistics more efficient, as you're transporting them in bulk instead of lots of little cars. You'd also avoid the energy cost of running the big shiny store, especially since the bricks-and-mortar store also has a web presence anyway. So I suspect it would be more efficient but probably not hugely so, as much of the logistics tail would be the same.]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163064#Comment_163064 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163064#Comment_163064 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:50:08 +0000 joe90
Its the government and its arrangements with Europe that need to sort this out. These companies are not breaking the law but being creative to keep their costs down. We would all do this if we could pay less tax !]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163066#Comment_163066 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163066#Comment_163066 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:21:05 +0000 seascape
I don't feel 'grateful' that I get a cheaper price because they don't pay tax - rather I'm appalled and I have stopped buying from Amazon.

By living/working in the UK we all have to pay tax and so should large companies - they already have an edge over smaller companies through economies of scale. I also don't buy the argument that this tax avoidance filters down to the consumer via cheaper prices, I'm suspicious that it percolates upwards towards a few major shareholders.]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163067#Comment_163067 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163067#Comment_163067 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:39:26 +0000 Jonti Posted By: Seret
Either way, it's one for HMRC to sort out if required,I don't see the need to do anything as consumer. If people want to shop elsewhere that's great, but I find Amazon to be one of the best services around.

Seret,

I am sure you don't mean it this way but morally your stand point is the same as saying buying stolen goods is okay as theft is one for the police to sort out if required and no need for the consumer to do anything.

As you may gather I totally disagree with you. I believe that everybody should be look out for the community.

On your other point about higher prices and lower wages the taxes HMRC are missing from Amazon like companies is just collected through higher taxes on the rest of us but I guess you are happy to pay more so others can pay less and if you think Amazon are paying higher wages than decent UK taxpaying companies you are wrong.

Companies like Amazon do offer good service but at the end of the day they are only interested in making as much money as possible so long as it is slightly legal and sod any moral qualms unless it effects the turnover.

Jonti]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163068#Comment_163068 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163068#Comment_163068 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:40:48 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: seascapeI'm suspicious that it percolates upwards towards a few major shareholders.Probably filters,or trickles, both ways.
Thing about tax is that it is a very blunt tool, why it is so complicated. I think that Labour in the 60s and 70s introduced a turnover tax, it crippled industries, hence we now have a profit tax on corporations.

If you think of personal income tax (without NI), it is pretty complicated with different breakpoints, different percentages, then tax breaks on savings and pensions, but also other taxes on savings and pension, then add to the mix working tax credits, family allowances, low income rebates and I am sure some others like free education and policing (should be taxed really).
Then think about the actual cash we pay, could we as individuals do a better job. I doubt it.

Be nice if we could just pick a percentage say 12% of our income and we pay tax on that, so if there are 30m taxpayers, the median wage is about £27,500, would £99,000,000,000 (near enough 100 billion) be enough.

The Guardian website says not as the total needed is £550.6b
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/apr/25/tax-receipts-1963#data

So we would have to pay 67% of all our income in tax, that would keep a lid on inflation :wink:

Just taking Income Tax and NI, the sum is about £251b (not enough apparently), so about 30.5% on every penny earned for everyone.]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163070#Comment_163070 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163070#Comment_163070 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:18:57 +0000 jamesingram Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163071#Comment_163071 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163071#Comment_163071 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:20:49 +0000 SteamyTea ]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163072#Comment_163072 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163072#Comment_163072 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:39:13 +0000 Krispy Posted By: seascapeI'm suspicious that it percolates upwards towards a few major shareholders.

Risk that "few major shareholders" are pension funds - so reduction in MegaCrop profits could impact man-in-the-street (although I'd be happy if, as a result, it caused the Pension Fund to move investments to companies that don't indulge in sharp tax practices)

For me the issue is that the tax, such as is being paid, is occurring in another jurisdiction; people would be a lot happier if the tax was levied where the money was made.

These companies are still paying taxes of course - they are end-user retailers, so VAT (although Amazon doges that [or "did"?] where possible by shipping from Channel Islands), NI and PAYE. Plenty of money spent within the UK too (Rent / Building / Stationery / Fuel etc).

I wonder how much of the total Tax that these huge companies - both the morally-good and the morally-bankrupt - is actually Corporation Tax? A "significant" amount? Maybe not.]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163073#Comment_163073 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163073#Comment_163073 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:48:39 +0000 SteamyTea Offshore £7.3b (they don't all get away with it)
Business rates are £23.6b
Stamp duties on shares £3b]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163075#Comment_163075 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163075#Comment_163075 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:09:20 +0000 seascape
ST - Montenegro 9% tax]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163077#Comment_163077 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163077#Comment_163077 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:17:40 +0000 SteamyTea Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163078#Comment_163078 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163078#Comment_163078 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:20:56 +0000 seascape Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163079#Comment_163079 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163079#Comment_163079 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:35:04 +0000 SteamyTea Future generations are going to have to bail out pensioners.

Trouble is we are too wealthy, just that we tend to count only our personal wealth, not the things that the state offers. Hard to put a price on paying someone else's wage if you feel your personal wealth has decreased.

There is a R4 program on at the moment about the BoE.]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163080#Comment_163080 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163080#Comment_163080 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:36:08 +0000 seascape Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163183#Comment_163183 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163183#Comment_163183 Thu, 13 Dec 2012 09:05:30 +0000 Seret Posted By: Jonti
Seret,

I am sure you don't mean it this way but morally your stand point is the same as saying buying stolen goods is okay as theft is one for the police to sort out if required and no need for the consumer to do anything.


That's not even close to what I was saying. For a start, buying stolen goods is actually illegal. Structuring your finances to reduce your tax is not only legal, it's something the government encourages us to do. There are lots of examples at an individual level: putting your savings into an ISA instead of a regular savings account, bundling works into a job which attracts 5% VAT instead of the higher rate, etc, etc. We all do these things, and you'd be mad not to.

Let's not conflate the law with morality. Your obligation to pay taxes is a legal one, not a moral one. You can't legislate for morality. The purpose of the law is to prevent abusive behaviour, not build moral fibre. Amazon aren't doing anything you could call abusive, they're providing an excellent service, keep lots of people in a job and are innovative.

Do I think Amazon are extracting the urine on tax? Of course, but there's no cause for moral outrage. Enforcement of tax law is an administrative matter for the bureaucrats. No one is doing anything illegal or immoral, they're just gaming the system, as you would expect any rational player to do. You can't extrapolate the moral fibre of a company's leadership from their tax bill, all it tells you is how crafty their finance department is.]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163187#Comment_163187 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163187#Comment_163187 Thu, 13 Dec 2012 09:47:49 +0000 SteamyTea ]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163190#Comment_163190 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163190#Comment_163190 Thu, 13 Dec 2012 11:01:08 +0000 bot de paille Google's motto " don't be evil" is a good example. Therefore there is a strong argument that they should be held up to account on moral grounds when they are found behaving like ... well... multinationals.


especially Autodesk]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163196#Comment_163196 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163196#Comment_163196 Thu, 13 Dec 2012 13:29:09 +0000 jamesingram Ok, it's fine for Google etc. to be Capitalist . Make sense that they work the rules to thier benefit , most do , silly not to really.
For a multinational to make profit from a society it requires that society to function .The society needs money to function. Tax is a way to get that money. If people ( multinationals ) dont pay taxs , our society will struggle to function as it currently does. Therefore to create and keep a long term sustainable , profitable company you need to fund the society that allows you to make profit from it.
Yes , it should be governments responsibility to organise the tax system to collect, as it sees fit ( equally from all, or more from those with more, or vise a versa ), the funds required to function.
But as with many things the government falls short of the mark. The various competing interests pull it to and fro. creating inaction, or at best, slow reaction.
Most charitable actions or campaigns are voicing pressure or offering service to fill these government short falls.
The public consumer is in a position to voice its opinion via boycotts as a way to potentially steer or push others into action and outcome it desires.

As for Morals , i suppose you could say that it's the place of those leading society (multinationals included)
to set a moral example.
Many people I know justify thier actions by using the example of others (usually those in higher levels of society than thier own.)
As in, 'thier aving it off, so I will too'.

I'm not up on economics , but I'm sure someones having it off and unfortunately it ain't me :angry::smile:]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163205#Comment_163205 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163205#Comment_163205 Thu, 13 Dec 2012 16:02:39 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: jamesingramI'm not up on economics , but I'm sure someones having it off and unfortunately it ain't meYou may find you are as we are some of the wealthiest people in the world in the UK. Don't confuse wealth with income. Even those that we consider to be not economically active in our society are still incredibly wealthy. Where does all this wealth come from, mainly by being a global player and using the existing systems in both our country and other countries to our advantage.
Now if Amazon was a UK company, would we be so critical?]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163207#Comment_163207 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163207#Comment_163207 Thu, 13 Dec 2012 16:50:32 +0000 jamesingram I'm wealthy relative to many UK residences even though i earn around the average nation income,(mainly because I dont spend our money on tat and live below our means)
I'm also extremely lucky to be born in this particular spot on the lump of rock we live on.

I just said "I'm sure someones having it off and unfortunately it ain't me" :cry:

I think the underly point of this is, how does a society get those with too much cash to dish it out a bit more
to fund up keep and progressive social development.
Multinational holding huge sums of cash off shore , claiming it's there for the next buy out etc. takes money out of the international economy , if they paid it in tax or spent it some other way this would help grease the wheels
of the market. How many billion does Google etc. have sitting in the bank ?

It wont 'trickle down' if they dont spend it ! ( please refer to previous captioned picture :) )

Take California , currently struggling to fund various state based activities , imagine the marketing and good will
a silicon valley company ( which exists off the back of that state) would get if it used some of it's reserve to help out. ( even though there are no doubt far worthier causes in the world , which the likes of Bill Gates seem to be putting his funds towards )]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163218#Comment_163218 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163218#Comment_163218 Fri, 14 Dec 2012 06:18:02 +0000 SteamyTea
Be interesting if we had a wealth tax rather than income tax. Though the UK tax people are looking into this with the mansion tax and CGT on private assets.]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163247#Comment_163247 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163247#Comment_163247 Fri, 14 Dec 2012 14:44:24 +0000 Jonti Posted By: Seret
Posted By: Jonti
Seret,

I am sure you don't mean it this way but morally your stand point is the same as saying buying stolen goods is okay as theft is one for the police to sort out if required and no need for the consumer to do anything.


That's not even close to what I was saying. For a start, buying stolen goods is actually illegal. Structuring your finances to reduce your tax is not only legal, it's something the government encourages us to do. There are lots of examples at an individual level: putting your savings into an ISA instead of a regular savings account, bundling works into a job which attracts 5% VAT instead of the higher rate, etc, etc. We all do these things, and you'd be mad not to.

Let's not conflate the law with morality. Your obligation to pay taxes is a legal one, not a moral one. You can't legislate for morality. The purpose of the law is to prevent abusive behaviour, not build moral fibre. Amazon aren't doing anything you could call abusive, they're providing an excellent service, keep lots of people in a job and are innovative.

Do I think Amazon are extracting the urine on tax? Of course, but there's no cause for moral outrage. Enforcement of tax law is an administrative matter for the bureaucrats. No one is doing anything illegal or immoral, they're just gaming the system, as you would expect any rational player to do. You can't extrapolate the moral fibre of a company's leadership from their tax bill, all it tells you is how crafty their finance department is.

Seret,

I wasn't accusing you of anything so I hope no offense was taken. I do however disagree on the moral issue and for me Amazon is happy to accept financial support from the government for its low paid workers whilst not wishing to contribute to it.

ST, Amazon, like Starbucks and any other major company has a US based part of the company even though its international headquarters are based elsewhere. It is just at the moment the UK based part is failing to make any real profit on the books. Were this however true, then they would have ceased trading quite a while back.

Jonti]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163252#Comment_163252 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163252#Comment_163252 Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:16:39 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: JontiWere this however true, then they would have ceased trading quite a while back.
Division of Labour, one of two economic theories that holds true says that this does not have to be the case. A lot of it depends on their business model, the investors/venture capitalists, cash flow forecasts. There are many reasons to run a organisations at a loss or at break even. In the UK they have been growing, once mature then the 'profits' start.]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163261#Comment_163261 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163261#Comment_163261 Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:11:05 +0000 Jonti
but 14 years (if I recall correctly?) seems a long time and were it really the case then their representatives would have been able to give straight forward answers when questioned by the commons committee the other week instead of trying to worm around the subject.

The fact is they are making a profit on their turnover in this country and should pay their fair share in tax on it.

Jonti]]> Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163264#Comment_163264 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=9899&Focus=163264#Comment_163264 Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:44:30 +0000 Seret Posted By: Jonti

The fact is they are making a profit on their turnover in this country and should pay their fair share in


That's fine, except that "a fair share" is a pretty non-specific figure. In reality they can only be made to pay what the rules say they have to.]]>