I'll bite; maybe somebody can persuade me to change my mind ...

I think all the arguments about economics are pointless. It's impossible to know what will happen to even state whether we'll be better off or worse off. If it's going to cause ructions elsewhere in the world, then the rest of the world needs to plan for it, I don't think it should be a concern of ours.

Security I don't know enough to say. I have heard that our intelligence deals are bilateral and the European level is not that important, but I don't know whether that is true.

Immigration feels like there should be more control out of the EU with a system that lets us choose the most useful applicants.

I'm strongly against TTIP so getting out of the EU should reduce the risk of being part of that. As I understand it the default position is WTO rules which I think means an average (extra?) rate of duty of 3% which doesn't sound so bad.

You'll be guessing which way I'm inclined by now, but to me the killer is the euro. I believe that sooner or later it will blow up, or much less likely there will be full political union of the euro nations. And I tend to think that a blow up sooner rather than later is most likely. I don't want to be part of a club going through a storm like that.

So I'll be voting leave unless somebody produces some more convincing arguments to remain.

Who's next ... ?

Posted By: djhI think all the arguments about economics are pointless. It's impossible to know what will happen to even state whether we'll be better off or worse off.

Yep - nobody knows enough to really tell - arguments based on short-term economics are just a proxy for more emotional considerations which are harder to articulate.

Out. At least then when our politicians make another cock up we know who to blame.... As for the coment regarding Scotland better part of the eu...if that happens I shall be moving south of the boarder, hollyrood is as big fruit up as Brussels .... Anybody want to buy a passiv spec house with no passive badge!!!

I'm for staying in and it's mostly about those 'short term' economic arguments either dismissed or considered impossible to call above. 'Short term' is in the order of my useful economic life because the EU is fragile economically and to say the UK will be screened from an EU melt down or return to recession is rather naive in my view - and if there is a next time, or continuation of this time depending on your view, the return to prosperity could easily take over 10 years. Whilst no-one can predict the future with any convincing certainty I find it hard to believe anyone can argue that there is no significant risk from the UK leaving the EU of a calamitous economic outcome. Judging this risk is not so easy I agree but it would appear that the entire 'city', the vast majority of medium and large businesses and every think tank/advisory group/quasi independent expert is clear that it is genuine risk of the low to medium likelihood, high impact variety.

Then there's the turbulence that will hit the UK whilst the mess of leaving is sorted out (ie as separate from any problems the EU may face) and for sure that will take 10 years and hold the UK back to a degree that in my view will not provide a justifiable ROI; the advantages of large economic blocs; and the integration that stabilises. (6 years ago I knew people who had friends who lost children to the bayonet, to others who seem to be cauldrons covered in a thin veneer of civilisation brought about by being in the EU, and these are military officers).

Lastly, that hornets nest of immigration - well I am an emigrant and I wouldn't have been able to go to a non-EU country, so it would be mightily 2-faced of me to vote against something that gave me my GBF log-in name wouldn't it! Putting that aside, the UK has been forever changed by integration and immigrants - forever changed as in can't be turned back, my gut tells me for the better but I can't argue against those whose gut tells them for the worse - what I do say is that horse has fled and closing the stable door will do no good now - we (the UK) have moved too far in this direction. More obliquely, perhaps the UK is actually doing what it has always done, and done well, over the last couple of hundred years - it is just that the velocity is far greater than ever before.

In for me.

Posted By: willie.macleodthe real immigration problem is EU nationals, not UK nationals coming home with families

Hmm - at the risk of going down a rabbit hole rather than keeping it general - Wille clearly you are exercised by this but I am not sure you were your normal coherent self in that post!

out out out.
based on my experience of working within local government at a relatively low level(parks and cemeteries) from watching the horrendous waste and inefficiency and nonproductive Empire building within our own larger organasation, also knowing of some of the shennanigans of our own "folks on the hill" = Stormont + plus keeping another lot of even harder to keep snouts in Gold-Plated troughs in Westminister.
The absolute last thing we need, is to be keeping an even larger lot of greedy vain misguided egotistical counter-productive feckers in Brussels.
Simple logic.

Too many chiefs and not enough indians, out.

I have always been confused about the 'red tape' debate.
We interpret directives and then implement and enforce them. Are people that say 'there is too much red tape' saying:
They don't like the subject
They don't like the way it is implemented
They don't like the way it is enforced

Do people think that it would be acceptable to employ people by the hour and get rid of them with no reason or notice, of maybe fine employees for very minor infringements, say dropping a washer on the floor.
Britain has in the past be a very bureaucratic country with very poorly written legislation (actually we still are, look at the legal highs legislation, we will all be on decaf tea soon). What makes people think that we can do better on our own?

Posted By: willie.macleodDemocracy is best when local folk are held accountable for their work, …

England hasn't had that for a while - well before the Roman invasion.

…giving endless amounts of power to folk that aren't accountable to anyone normally ends badly.

Yep, though it's not obvious why MEPs should be any less accountable than Westminster MPs.

Posted By: torrent99and the way we seem to obey every EU directive whilst other countries ignore them.

So if we pull out, with the other other nations say 'Great, the British have gone, we can play by the rules now'.
I can see that happening.

It is really all about trade. And being a participant in a large trading block is the better way.
I work in catering, for a very small company, we have never felt that the EU is holding us back. We keep an eye to the news to make sure that there is nothing that affects us i.e. change of formulas in case they contain different nuts (it was a staff information issue, rather than any rule bending that got the prosecution recently).
Thinking 'your town' can compete in the UK market on its own, is the same as thinking that the UK can compete with the EU.
One of the reasons that we are the 5th largest economy is because we are in the EU. All the economic evidence and opinions are for us to remain, all the reasons to leave are based on speculation and prejudice as far as I can see.

So I' can't be doing with a non-elected bunch of European Seb Blatters telling me what I can or cannot do, I'd much rather it was a bunch of corrupt British politicians and fat cats doing it, 'cause then everything will be all right, won't it?. I would be able to enjoy true democratic freedoms whilst the rest of Europe turns into a disaster.

But then I was forgetting that if we vote to leave, the spite of the spurned rest of Europe will be turned against us and we will sink slowly in our ship of freedom.

I think we're stuffed either way, but I sort of prefer to be in a gang of bullies than to be the one being bullied, so I've slowly changed my mind and think I will vote to stay in. The world has changed, the world is joined up by big business interests and multi national companies, we can't turn the clock back, individual countries will cease to exist as time goes on.

Could blah on forever etc etc.

Many people are describing things as they would like them to be, as opposed to what will actually change to.

Of course I want to pay less for government
Of course I want better security
Of course I want to control immigration
Of course I want free movement around Europe
Of course I don't want a war
Of course I want democracy
etc

I'm finding it hard to really understand what will actually change either way for example in order to maintain access to the single market:
- will we have to keep our borders open,
- will we have to pay lots to the EU
- will we have to accept certain types of rulings from the EU and implement them
etc
??

I fear the answer is the only real difference is that I have representation through an MEP.

Am I wrong, if so on what level?

Hi Jonathan,
We currently have a trade deficit with the rest of the EU. Any talk of Brussels getting tough with the UK in the event of BREXIT is IMO not going to happen, why would it. They wouldn't want to start a tit for tat trade war. Strangely, deficit means a fortuitous twist that gives the UK the whip hand in any re-negotiation, and that re-negotiation could include all of your concerns. We pick and choose which bits we like and ditch the rest.
As for you "Of Course" list the EU has failed on almost all of them, and the ones it hasn't failed on, e.g. "free movement" are a disaster.
As for MEPs they are often toothless when it comes to reform, the faceless backroom crowd hold sway.

Posted By: Simon StillI leave Boris Johnson out of that list

I am starting to think that he a plant by the Remain campaign.
He is their secret weapon, 'Hey lads, we seem to be behind in the polls. Get Boris to say something'. Works every time.
I like Boris.

Posted By: SteamyTea
Thinking 'your town' can compete in the UK market on its own, is the same as thinking that the UK can compete with the EU.

Our "town" can. We have the quality products and folk want to buy them because they are the best, not because they are cheap and convenient, they are neither. Our whisky, tweeds etc go to folk with money rather than EU countries, price isn't generally a huge factor to them. Our black puddings are legendary and our seafood is as well. Other stuff we deal with like fish oil, seaweed etc will still be sold - people still need it globally. And our tourism is very hard for anyone to take away. Old stuff and pretty scenery doesn't ship easily.

If the French and Spanish don't want to buy our seafoods then they can eat something else. We could still sell the same volumes closer to home, fewer food miles isn't a bad thing and getting our quotas back would be a massive windfall, allowing us to manage our own shores sustainably. Fishing discards...... that's how the EU listens to our repeated requests for sustainability, look at Norway - it was way back in the 90s that they came out with their ban on discards and active management of fishing areas. Decades of inaction by the EU on a serious environmental matter, only to be spurred into action by a media campaign, not the people at the sharp end complaining. The EU isn't the be all and end all when it comes to green practices, we all should be able to do the right thing and manage our own local areas for ourselves and for our future generations.

Owlman, I know what you mean and agree, don't think the EU wanted us at all though as they made it clear we wouldn't be granted entry till we did penance for a few years then agreed to everything they asked us, not all members of the SNP are taking the official stay in line - Jim Sillars of the old school part of the SNP for one is part of the exit campaign.