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General: Grenfell tower fire

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  1.  
    Hi,

    Lineweight yes that's what i'm trying to be absolutely clear on. The layer of insulation for thermal reasons, or, the rains screen layer which happened to have a filling to bulk it and give rigidity that was a foam that was flammable.
    Broadly its all cladding as was on the outside, but lets be clear about which layer.
    Thanks Again
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: Mike (Up North)Hi,

    Lineweight yes that's what i'm trying to be absolutely clear on. The layer of insulation for thermal reasons, or, the rains screen layer which happened to have a filling to bulk it and give rigidity that was a foam that was flammable.
    Broadly its all cladding as was on the outside, but lets be clear about which layer.
    Thanks Again


    Yup, newspaper reporting on this has been pretty uniformly rubbish from the outset, in terms of being clear about the technical stuff.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2017
     
    Camden seem to be a lot more on the ball than Kensington, or central government.

    Ray Bailey seems like he is in denial about the apparent evidence of the many videos, and has set himself up as prime candidate at his firm for a prison stretch according to my 'at least one person from every organization involved' mantra.

    It might be worth pointing out that part of the Passivhaus certification process is proving that the building was built correctly and does not differ from the design documents, using photographs and invoices etc.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2017
     
    You're more obsessed with prison than Michael Howard! Although with good reason in this case.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2017
     
    I think it would concentrate minds significantly more than present policies.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2017
     
    Wouldn't it have to fit into the overall company liability legislation? How can directors etc currently go to jail, isn't it normally only for mass fraud? I have no idea.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2017
     
    I looked up as to who was the "responsible person" named on a fire risk assessment from my local ALMO and it just has the management organisation as a whole , so a corporate entity has responsibility, ( would'nt be surprised if this is a widespread practice, as difficut to see an individual wishing to accept responsibility)which makes large fines the most likely outcome , which seems a bit pointless in the social housing context of not for profit organisations.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2017 edited
     
    A statement by someone from Scotland Yard on BBC just now said that both the "Insulation and tiles" used in the cladding has failed a combustion test carried out by the BRE.

    She also said samples of the insulation "combusted soon after the test started" and that the "initial test on the cladding tiles also failed the safety tests".

    Sorry for the edits. Wanted to be accurate as poss.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2017
     
    Not sure if this link will work for long but skip to around 10:42..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcnews
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2017
     
    That makes sense, I can't see the flammable cladding on its own causing what we see, the insulation must have been burning too.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2017 edited
     
    I think that manslaughter would be the appropriate charge, with convictions under fire and health & safety legislation providing evidence.

    Executives of companies are responsible for the behaviour of those 'corporate persons'.

    edit: just read the BBC report; I see it says the police agree with me. Good to hear.

    Interesting that Whirlpool are also involved - their response to tumble dryer faults has been a scandal.
    • CommentAuthornikhoward
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2017
     
    Not on here as much these days, but thought it would be the best place to get a knowledgeable opinion on what happened.

    If you read the start of this thread, it's amazing that you guys realised the problem straight away that is only just coming out now.

    It's appalling what's has happened and so preventable given what we now find out.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2017
     
    It puzzles me that the firemen who attended the initial fridge fire appear to have vacated the flat quickly after putting out the fire. Apparently they only saw it as they were leaving. The heat from that fire must have been fierce enough to penetrate masonry walls and or windows to cause the insulation to ignite. I guess they never thought that the insulation would catch fire through a wall or window, should they have checked, I don't know. It's going to be an interesting inquiry.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2017
     
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2017
     
    Posted By: CWattersA statement by someone from Scotland Yard on BBC just now said that both the "Insulation and tiles" used in the cladding has failed a combustion test carried out by the BRE.

    She also said samples of the insulation "combusted soon after the test started" and that the "initial test on the cladding tiles also failed the safety tests".


    My immediate thought was that this test was carried out by The Met, so possibly not a test to the relevant British Standard.

    As we know, applying a blow torch to anything will ignite it. I'm not saying it didn't ignite, just that it was certified to a specific standard test. Unless this was replicated any test just fuels FUD.

    The other thing is that, with 600 building possibly built the same, by many different builders etc, I suspect it could be a valid defence that this was common practice and as such their was no reason not to believe it was safe. The only difference would be if what was fitted was either fitted incorrectly, or the wrong material used. Again that also presumes that what was supplied was what was ordered.

    Those councils claiming the wrong material was fitted I suspect are deflecting.

    I think the answer will still be a failure of testing of specific buildups and no one person will be able to be held accountable.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2017
     
    Some questions:-

    Does flammable cladding over non flammable (mineral wool) represent a significant enough risk to need immediate action or indeed any action. Whereas flammable insulation and flammable cladding certainly warrants protective actions.

    How did a fire inside a flat get out, there should be walls between inside and outside, then there is the ugly question of why this wasn't discovered by the fire services at the time of the fire.

    Some insulation materials are very expensive, there must be a pressure to use cheaper alternatives.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2017
     
    I think a test that demonstrated combustibility helps explain what happens. If the standard test doesn't demonstrate the same results, then what it points to is faulty standards. If there is indeed widespread of the same materials then it points culpability towards the higher more central parts of organizations whether commercial, administrative or political.

    There have been many other apparently similar fires both in this country and in others, so there's very little excuse for so many dead people. I believe it is very important to identify individual responsibility to prevent further repetitions.
  18.  
    Although there may be culpable people, another possibility is that the processes used to certify materials and the applications of materials may be inadequate, or have just not kept up with new materials and building techniques. The many threads on this forum about the complexities of EWI - especially the positioning and detailing of window frames - suggests to me that it's a complex issue that is poorly understood throughout the industry.
  19.  
    As usual people need to die before anything happens

    Local authorities seem to be more interested in planning/colour of your brick work than anything else.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2017
     
    Posted By: EasyBuilderAlthough there may be culpable people, another possibility is that the processes used to certify materials and the applications of materials may be inadequate, or have just not kept up with new materials and building techniques.
    I'm in this camp. The more instances identified, the more this is the most likely conclusion from any investigation / enquiry (assuming materials used as specified and specified in accordance with current regulations).

    Posted By: tonyDoes flammable cladding over non flammable (mineral wool) represent a significant enough risk to need immediate action or indeed any action. Whereas flammable insulation and flammable cladding certainly warrants protective actions.
    Need to be careful over the use of the word 'flammable' - almost anything *will* burn, it is a question of how quickly and how it propagates. Even the outer skin of aluminium will burn (ask sailors in the Falklands conflict).

    As to immediate action, yes, but rather than evacuation, I'd have thought some fire piquet personnel with air raid type sirens would be adequate - offering time to evacuate which is of course the key.
    • CommentAuthormarktime
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2017
     
    Let's be better than this when discussing elements connected to this disastrous fire. Aluminium does not burn and a moments reflection would bring you to that conclusion. How do you think scrap alumunium is treated?

    For more info go here:

    http://www.alfed.org.uk/files/Fact%20sheets/11-aluminium-and-fire.pdf
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2017
     
    Posted By: marktimeAluminium does not burn and a moments reflection would bring you to that conclusion.


    Is this not playing with words ?

    OK, the aluminium conducts heat away from itself so well, that everything around it burns...

    Where is the difference to a trapped resident ?

    gg
  23.  
    Im with easybuilder and borpin.
    Its may well be (if the products are proved to be of the standard of the test item) that its the inability of the system that regulates fire risk of products to deal with their interplay within a multi part design.
    How does it update with new information and in use experience.

    Most of us on this thread have been aware of spread of fire risk issue with EWI systems,
    the manufacture would have also, and many in the business that take an interest in the products they fit.
    did they all just take the gamble to remain in feined ignorance because the fire cert or BBA approval cert said it was ok ?
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2017
     
    Posted By: marktimeAluminium does not burn
    Well 'burn' is perhaps not the right technical term, but it does react (not just melt) when subject to sufficient heat depending on the alloying element used and other surrounding material (which it may react with). The problem with Aluminium in ships was the magnesium alloying element and I had forgotten that.
  25.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: bot de paille</cite>As usual people need to die before anything happens

    Local authorities seem to be more interested in planning/colour of your brick work than anything else.</blockquote>

    Its not as if we have not been here before. Back in 1999 a tower block went up like a torch resulting in a death and a parliamentary enquiry. So which of the current MP's new of this report dating back to 2000.

    https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmenvtra/109/10907.htm
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2017
     
    As my building is clad with insulation and cedar cladding I attempted to set light to a piece of Kingspan K50 insulation board. I was surprised how readily it lit but then extinguished itself very quickly seemingly by forming a molten skin as the flame progressed. It is classified as a class 0 as defined by Building regs.
  27.  
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: renewablejohn</cite><blockquote><cite>Posted By: bot de paille</cite>As usual people need to die before anything happens

    Local authorities seem to be more interested in planning/colour of your brick work than anything else.</blockquote>

    Its not as if we have not been here before. Back in 1999 a tower block went up like a torch resulting in a death and a parliamentary enquiry. So which of the current MP's new of this report dating back to 2000.

    <a href="https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmenvtra/109/10907.htm" rel="nofollow">https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmenvtra/109/10907.htm</a></blockquote>

    Yes, there have been fire before involving external cladding in the UK, but in the Ayrshire incident only 1 person died, not enough to be considered a national tragedy. Either that or the person who dies has to be related to a politician or other powerful person.
  28.  
    Posted By: revorAs my building is clad with insulation and cedar cladding I attempted to set light to a piece of Kingspan K50 insulation board. I was surprised how readily it lit but then extinguished itself very quickly seemingly by forming a molten skin as the flame progressed. It is classified as a class 0 as defined by Building regs.


    Now repeat the experiment with the kingspan in a saucer of diesel to represent the pyrolysis of the UPVC and you should get a good wick effect and very toxic fumes. Even mention of cyanide poisoning.
    • CommentAuthorSprocket
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2017
     
    And the wind/stack drawing flame through insulation beneath the cladding...
    http://www.probyn-miers.com/perspective/2016/02/fire-risks-from-external-cladding-panels-perspective-from-the-uk/
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 25th 2017
     
    Excellent review article, thanks sprocket.

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