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General: Grenfell tower fire

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    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2017
     
    Continuous Power Bridge...
    Cardiopulmonary bypass...
    Communist Party of Britain...
    Camilla Parker Bowles?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2017
     
    Posted By: CX23882The new tilt and turns were fitted whilst the sliders were still in place

    How do you make that out?

    "There will be a separate internal team who will remove the existing glazing from inside and fit the new glass (its all internally beaded) then carry out the surround trimming."

    The frames were fitted first, unglazed.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2017 edited
     
    (Q) "Could the windows be inset from the building face, so that if residents throw liquids from windows – the windows don’t end up with tea over them?"

    (A) Firstly, residents should not be throwing anything from the windows. Please report to the housing office if you suffer any incidents, giving time and date.

    Could the reveals be heavily fireproofed so that any cooking accidents due to spirit stoves tipping over onto the uPVC, throwaway barbecues, camping gaz etc. will not set the facade alight...

    gg
    • CommentAuthorCX23882
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: CX23882The new tilt and turns were fitted whilst the sliders were still in place

    How do you make that out?

    "There will be a separate internal team who will remove the existing glazing from inside and fit the new glass (its all internally beaded) then carry out the surround trimming."

    The frames were fitted first, unglazed.


    My interpretation of the statements on that page were that the exterior team installed unglazed frames from the outside, and then an internal team removed the old windows and fitted the glazing units to the frames.

    One of the news agencies posted a cross section of the cladding, and although it's a bit too low resolution to see for sure, the windows appear to sit outside of the concrete frame:

    https://content.assets.pressassociation.io/2017/06/14194356/56d9e09e7ad93aa2c085c9eeca13f046-640x500.jpg

    But there is no guarantee that the detail shown is a correct as built.
  5.  
    ''Continuous Power Bridge...
    Cardiopulmonary bypass...
    Communist Party of Britain...
    Camilla Parker Bowles?''

    ChiPBoard?
  6.  
    Cement Particle Board, I guess?
  7.  
    Yep that sounds right Nick , from memory a few years back a poster here said his BCO demand it when he wanted to ply box out a window into the insulation layer so he lined the box with it prior to fitting.
    I remember thinking at the time that was a good idea and to do it in the future ( which i have done)
    So I concur with Tom , windows are the weak point even in a 2 storey house ( especially plastic ) so extra care is need to protect and stop fire breaking into the EWI layer at these points.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2017
     
    Posted By: jamesingramfew years back a poster here said his BCO demand it when he wanted to ply box out a window into the insulation layer so he lined the box with it prior to fitting.
    Wow - I didn't take note.

    However - 'lined his box with it' - which way was he expecting the fire to come?
    Answer is, both ways - so needs to be solid CPB (Correctly Political Blather) - or Thermacel - not just a lining.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2017
     
    One of the last blogs I did for my build was the windows. These had a ply box moving the windows out but I then closed the edge of the insulation with supalux screwed (and sealed) to the outside of the ply box outward from the frame. It then had 50x50 to close the cavity (not shown).

    https://www.borpin.co.uk/2012/11/20/wall-complete-and-windows-going-in/img_0714/
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2017 edited
     
    Looks good.
    I've just lined the box internally along its full width with cement board like hardibacker prior to installing the windows.
    My view was that the plastic windows are the risk so this should slow the fire spread into the EPS EWI even though it could travel along the ply. I was concerned cps was a bit to brittle on its own . I'm not familiar with supalux is that suitable on its own?
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeJun 15th 2017
     
    Remember that in a detected home, as soon as one room is on fire, the fire alarm sounds, and you get out. Hence a fire spreading between rooms var windows etc is not the issue that it is in tower blocks.

    The only solution I am happy with for tower blocks, is not to use any EPS (or anything else that can burn) as part of the build up, other then within a single flat.
  12.  
    Yes, your right, the fire and spread risk are very different in different properties.
    I think it's worth additional detailing to reduce these risks even just to reduce property damage.
    I live in a row of terraces most are now EPS ewi via council , they do not have fire breaks between the properties though on the 3 storey flats they did put a rock wool bats band on each floor to break the EPS.
    The mesh render gives it a class 0 fire rating and all these EPS will have flame retardant in it so I consider fire spread a much lower risk than these cladded vented systems used on larger blocks, still worth designing in precautions.
  13.  
    In my experience Supalux is very brittle. I cannot see it being useful in this instance - or has it changed?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017
     
    I agree ringi, fail safe should be the design strategy.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017
     
    What would it take to bring down the cost of rockwool so that we no longer used EPS for EWI? Is it just scale that is needed given most of the cost is in the fitting anyway?
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017
     
    Posted By: ringiWhat would it take to bring down the cost of rockwool


    well, apparently *cost* is not the problem:
    per http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40285994:

    "Communities and Local Government Secretary Sajid Javid promised the government would "act immediately" and will do "whatever is required", even if it costs billions of pounds."

    If cost is not the problem, then it is probably some other factor...

    gg
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017
     
    What sort of mineral wool product is used for rendering straight onto? Some sort of rigid batt?
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017 edited
     
    The cladding appears be the issue.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/grenfell-tower-fire-resistant-cladding-is-just-5-000-more-expensive-6gjqkg98g
    Gravelld yes, most systems offer them as an option but since the better u value grey EPS has appeared this seems the preferred option. Mineral bats are less robust , water or vermin issues would get greater than say with EPS.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017
     
    I've been using rigid batts for some time in preference to the usual Kingspan/Celotex products not for any other reason than I find them easier and cleaner to use.
    Sawing 8 x 4 kingspan sheets is awkward and messy with bits everywhere. With renovation jobs they invariably need odd shaped bits.
    Rigid batts on the other hand can easily be cut with a sharp knife and if slightly oversized can be squeezed into much more difficult openings.
    There are different grades of rigidity available, but this may prompt manufacturers to produce a grade with a ready affixed mesh for just the purpose you propose.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017
     
    I was buying them like that thirty years ago, a Twillath product from memory.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017
     
    Predicting the future is not easy but let's have a go

    No more eps for EWI over three floors
    No more uPVC windows in tower blocks
    Double fire lined window reveals for all EWI systems
    Change in advice given by fire service
    Evacuation alarms for tall buildings
    More sprinkler systems more widely used
    Review of the use of voids behind cladding.
    Registration, certification and checking of all major works to tower blocks
    New codes of practice and hopefully fail safe design criteria.

    Evacuation now from similar buildings and replacement of the EPS with mineral fibre, fire breaks and fire lined reveals installed.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017
     
    I wonder if EWI is an opportunity to fit sprinkler systems, behind the cladding in a similar way to ventilation are fitted in some EWI retrofits?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017
     
    I think you missed the most obvious - no more flammable cladding, and replacement of any already installed on tall buildings.

    I'm not sure about EPS EWI specifically. Clearly anything used as the insulation layer in a EWI system needs to be fire retardent but EPS can be. Maybe we need to ban thermoplastics, which would indeed affect EPS.

    I'd think phenolic was still a candidate alongside mineral fibre though.

    When you say change in fire service advice, I presume you're referring to the stay in your flat advice, but I'm not sure whether you're referring to the general advice, or to specific advice given on the night? Specific advice was clearly wrong and better training is needed. But is there an alternative to the general advice, short of knocking down all similar tower blocks?
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017
     
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017 edited
     
    Seems the fire risk of cladding was known as far back a 1999/2000....

    http://www.building.co.uk/cladding-the-new-rules/1000582.article

    Quote:

    A fatal fire in a Scottish tower block last year [1999] triggered a review of cladding systems. As a result, the Building Regulations may be amended. What will it mean for manufacturers, installers and specifiers?

    At midday on 11 June 1999, a fire started in a flat on the fifth floor of Garnock Court, a 14-storey residential tower in Irvine, Ayrshire. Within minutes, it burst through the window of the flat. Seconds later, onlookers reported that a vertical ribbon of cladding on one corner of the block was ablaze.

    Ten minutes after that, the flames had reached the 12th floor. As the fire took hold on the outside of the building, it began to break into the flats above. By the time the fire brigade arrived, the nine upper floors of the building were engulfed in flames. A wheelchair-bound pensioner died in the blaze.

    The cladding on the outside of the building was suspected of contributing to the fire's severity, and concerns were raised that housing blocks around the country could be at risk. This triggered a parliamentary inquiry into the extent of the problem, which was carried out by the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs Select Committee.

    Continues..
  26.  
    Posted By: jamesingram
    Mineral bats are less robust , water or vermin issues would get greater than say with EPS.


    Really? I would have thought mineral wool, whilst generally more able to get saturated, would be more resistant to vermin than EPS. What is this based on?
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017
     
    Posted By: gyrogear
    well, apparently *cost* is not the problem:

    I think that the word now may be missing from that?
    • CommentAuthortorrent99
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017
     
    Article in the standard yesterday claimed the insulation was Celotex RS5000, which is supposed to be Class 0.

    This building was a tragedy waiting to happen, it had a huge amount of faults on its fire standards (I've spoken to someone who's seen the last fire inspection). A perfect storm of problems.

    I mean how can a building so large not have a working and effective building-wide fire alarm?
    How can that happen in 2017? Never mind sprinkler systems, that's beyond basic.
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017
     
    Posted By: torrent99I mean how can a building so large not have a working and effective building-wide fire alarm?
    How can that happen in 2017? Never mind sprinkler systems, that's beyond basic.

    The theory seems to be that if a building has proper compartmentalisation of fire risk, then building wide systems are not required?
    The same idea seems to be the core of the "stay in place" safety strategy?

    That a very big if, which relies on everything being perfect, throughout the life of the building... :sad:
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2017
     
    Posted By: CWattersJerrmy Corbyn has already blaming the fire on conservative cuts
    Can anyone say whether the most recent Labour govts were equally guilty/complacent in the string of failures/cuts that's led to this? Decimation of Building Control has been going on for some time.

    tony's list of predictions - why is he (and everyone) missing the obvious - the culture of non-enforcement of Building Regs?

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