Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!


powered by Surfing Waves




Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012
     
    Now that Rio+20 is over and having just heard that our canals have been given to some charity that needs to raise money, I was wondering if anyone fancies a stab at valuing nature. We discus the price of building, plots, heating, PV, ST systems, windows etc. But how about the things we do not directly pay for and would we like a price on them?
    • CommentAuthormarktime
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012
     
    How about priceless? The moment you ascertain a value you introduce the concept of trading off one part for another. Wouldn't that cause speculators to salivate?

    Here's an example. What value would you assign to a sporting competion involving an invitation to all nations to compete freely? We could call it Olympics or something, just to celebrate its origins.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012
     
    That is the problem. Saying priceless is only saying that it is hard to establish a cash price. What you can do though is say 'what is the price to develop an alternative site?'
    So would it have been cheaper to host the Olympics in Birmingham or Truro?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012
     
    It depends what "currency " you are using. By using Sterling, Dollars, Euros etc, you are introducing commercialism as marktime says, and the answer will be biased toward development, exploitation, etc.. Turn the issue in it's head instead and find a a way of quantifying, "feel good" then use that as the basis of the valuation; remove the "filthy lucra" from the equation altogether, and you'll get a different answer.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012
     
    Using 'money' just puts a transferable common value onto things. Two nights in a forest is worth a half days building say.
    So would you, or I, pay more to do something that makes us feel good, say a massage, in a warm controlled environment or a cold damp forest. A lot of it is putting a price on convenience. I like camping, and it gives me a good feeling to know that there are some great places to wild camp (even if strictly not allowed), I would feel aggrieved if I was charged for this directly, say by permit, but I do not feel aggrieved that I pay for it indirectly though other taxes. The area that I use is an area of outstanding natural beauty, SSS1, possibly a heritage site and will not be developed (hence not strictly being allowed to stay there), it does not even have open access to everyone. So what is it worth?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012
     
    Posted By: SteamyTea..............., say a massage, in a warm controlled environment or a cold damp forest.

    :shocked::bigsmile: Oooo!- Steamy, shades of naughty Nordic nights.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012
     
    I suppose SSSIs have to have restricted access in some cases, simply because they act as biodiversity "seedbanks ", and in this overcrowded island their very raison d'etre would be threatened if unfettered free access were allowed, so I don't have a problem with that. Maybe the question therfore is what price biodiversity for future generations. I have great respect for "ALLEMANSRÄTT" and it has much to commend it, whether it could ever work in the UK I doubt.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012
     
    One could argue that the more bio diverse an area is especially one with protected status (SSSI, Heritage site etc) the lower the monetary value because of the inherent cost of maintenance without the benefit of income. Someone else might like to pay money to look after a swamp full of newts and such. The value of anything is only realised at the point of sale.
    I wouldn't pay £££millions for "The Scream" but someone did. Someone else bought Rangers FC. We are all different!
    Anyway, haven't the UK Gov. just valued our natural environment?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012
     
    If we are experience a time of 'high extinction' and we only know of 10% of the boo-diversity of the planet, how do we price the unknown if we do not know if there is any advantage in having it.

    Yes the Government is meant to be pricing our environment.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: marktimeHow about priceless? The moment you ascertain a value you introduce the concept of trading off one part for another. Wouldn't that cause speculators to salivate?


    but that's exactly what happens with wind farms. six turbine site near me they will need 5km of new road across good agricultural land described as an "area of best landscape". Fair trade?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012
     
    ST wants a unit of accounting - but it needn't be money units. Adding and subtracting them needn't be linear just because that's the custom with money - attractors, square laws etc could fit reality better!
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012
     
    Given the nature of Nature, how can you possibly assign a capital value to "it"?

    You have first to define it definitively.

    Given the subjective nature of the entity, that amorphous quality that defeats any attempt to define it quantitatively, how can any monetary 'value' you give it have any meaning?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 12th 2012 edited
     
    You can use any currency you like and have any relationship you like between them, personally I like exponential growth and decay. You can make an algorithm (set of rules) or a very complicated formula.
    So say a hectare of woodland is worth 3 pigs, which in turn are worth 1 cow or 7 sheep, a sheep being worth a 2 ducks or 3 chickens.
    Much easier to put them on a common base, but could be kWh.year^-1. That one I like as we already have a base figure for that for any spot on the Earth. It also has the same value where ever it is. A Joule is a Joule.
    So a square metre of land is worth the solar energy that hits it plus any true geothermal and gravitational potential (a lake high is worth more than a lake low down, the Bristol Channel is worth more than the English Channel). Wind potential is a tricky one as it is really only solar energy, as is rainfall, but they could be factored in. As could mineral rights. The temperature of the land is important to. Then there is the 'agricultural' potential, some places are better for growing different things (can't see a great forest potential up the Andes in Chile, or on Bodmin Moor for that matter (mad up there anyway)).
    But it could be worked out and then compare it to the 'loss' to us of not exploring that resource, or swapping it for more of a lesser one, or less of a greater one.

    So say that I have ten square metres of land in Cornwall and it has a kWh.year&^-1 value of 13,000. Would it be fair to swap that for 20 m^2 of land with a value of only 6500 or for 5m^2 of 26000 kWh.year^-1 land (rainforest maybe, or a very good bit of estuary with tidal resource).
    It would then be easy to put a cash price on that as it would just be the value of the energy potential on the free market (around 0.5p to 15p/kWh.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012 edited
     
    Ah. You're confusing Nature with 'natural resources'.

    So if you put a capital value on your particular spot of beach, would you derive as much pleasure from staying at home because I've given you the cash value of that spot of beach in order to 'deprive' you of it?

    The operative word there is "pleasure", isn't it? No two people are going to be able to put a cash value on something that subjective so how can you substitute a cash value for the actual thing?

    (It's why I suggested you change the title of the thread in the whisper above! :wink:)
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    Ah, I see what you mean now. But no :bigsmile:

    If you ask enough people what they are willing to pay for something or be compensated for not having something you will arrive at a decent estimate.
    Crowds are pretty intelligent, even allowing for the barmy answers. Only got to look at the 'valuing a building plot' thread to see how quickly the upper and lower bounds get set, then the nitty gritty detail starts, and it will probably sell somewhere around the median value of the two scenarios.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012 edited
     
    Not a reliable way of arriving at the "real" value, which is not dependent on either intrinsic or extrinsic value, both of which require input from notoriously fickle "perception", itself determined by whatever future use someone perceives to be the "value" of whatever it is being considered.

    You're not valuing Nature, you're valuing whatever is perceived to add value to it.

    Example. Whilst out photographing local landmarks for the campaign against the proposed local wind farm, the woman driving me around is married to a guy who's a good mate of a local "businessman". In the course of general conversation, I happened to mention the sale of a local stone quarry and she said that the local parish council had asked if the owners would gift it to the parish council so that they could landscape it for use as a local leisure amenity (the reclamation apparently a condition of the original planning permission, all pretty standard stuff). They wouldn't gift it. A figure of £100,000 was asked. Too much for the parish council, despite it being pointed out that £100K was way below the "real" market value.

    Someone eventually offered £200,000, without revealing what their plans were, and that was considered until someone else came along and the figure reached £250,000.

    Blah, blah, blah. It was eventually recently sold for £300,000 to a completely new bidder, that local "businessman".

    My lady driver knew who that person was because of the link with her husband. He's intending to turn it into a traveller's site.

    There is no median value to something which doesn't have any intrinsic value, itself a chimera but less so than the extrinsic value that bit of Nature assumes when someone assigns it a value that relates to their assessment of its "worth". By definition it has ceased to be Nature and becomes a natural resource to be converted into cash. :cry:
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    As joiner says ST it's just too subjective a task. Valuations would tend toward resources, mineral, energy production, food production, etc, quite simply exploitative. How would you quantify peace and quiet, relaxation, wonder, and joy, and the way a walk in a beautiful landscape makes you feel. It's like trying to get a grip an why a particular piece of music or poetry moves you, or indeed why you fall for one particular person. Resorting to a mean average of what has worth or not can't be used in such circumstances.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    It is very subjective, but if we do have to value it, and it seems we do now, the price that suits most people must surely be the price it is.
    Some things can easily have a cash price put on them. The cost of building on a flood plain below a deforested hillside is lower than the cost of building on a flood plain next to a forested hillside.
    The costs are reasonable well understood in this situation (hence Theresa May having a word with the insurance companies day before yesterday).
    Question is then, would it be cheaper for the insurance companies to buy and reforest the hillside than occasionally pay out for flood damage. And if they did would there be secondary benefits that could pay back the cost of reforestation (chargeable leisure market, managed timber production).

    They did some surveys down here a few years back about charging to go to the beach. Tourists did not have a problem with a charge but locals did (let's face it they like their dogs pooing on it). Other surveys have shown that people in the SW dislike the high water rates, partly high because of keeping the beaches clean.

    So my question is, how much would you be willing to pay for access to your favourite places? and if they are charging already how much do you pay?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    Posted By: SteamyTea............ Other surveys have shown that people in the SW dislike the high water rates, partly high because of keeping the beaches clean.

    Maginot line,- then charge the emmets out to come in, job done!

    :bigsmile::wink:
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    NT charge £4 a day for parking wherever it is, even if you're only walking the dog for an hour.

    But the real issue is what is meant by "priceless"? Again by definition, it is something to which a price cannot be attached, not something on which no one can agree a monetary value, even a notional one.

    As owlman says, it is subjective/emotional. Now that might be irrational in a world that recognises value only in terms of monetary "worth", but that probably explains why that world is having so many problems! :sad:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    Posted By: owlmanaginot line,- then charge the emmets out to come in, job done!

    They are charged, just indirectly. Pretty quiet campsites down here at moment. Why a coffee can cost over 2 quid.

    Posted By: JoinerBut the real issue is what is meant by "priceless"? Again by definition, it is something to which a price cannot be attached, not something on which no one can agree a monetary value, even a notional one.

    A price can be attached to anything you like, just that an individual may not like the price, or, and this is most likely, no one has bothered to try and set a price.

    Posted By: JoinerNT charge £4 a day for parking wherever it is, even if you're only walking the dog for an hour.

    There is an NT carpark near me that has the sign up, but never has anyone there to take the money, so they have decided that the cost of enforcement/collection is not worth the price. I am sure there are others like it to.
    Also not far from it is a private carpark that charges a quid, via an honesty box. Be interesting to know how much they raise a year. That is a truer way of setting a price.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    Why stop at Nature? Introduce a compulsory annual air-flow test on everyone and work out how much air they breathe and apply a tax on it?

    Asthmatics would get a discount.

    Those on ventilators would get a rebate.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaa stab at valuing nature
    If that means what it says - nature itself rather than the potential for making money or incurring costs out of nature - then consider this: we ARE nature - not merely closely connected with nature, but identical with it. If nature catches a cold, we catch a cold. If bits of nature die, bits of every one of us dies (not just some of us die, the rest remain OK - that is an illusion). If nature dies, we die. If nature thrives, we thrive.

    So how does each one of us value in money terms our own personal dying, or thriving. Go on ST, name your price.
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    A multi-pack of Mars bars and I'm anybody's. :winkkiss:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    Posted By: fostertomSo how does each one of us value in money terms our own personal dying, or thriving. Go on ST, name your price.

    Posted By: JoinerA multi-pack of Mars bars and I'm anybody's

    We value water lower than diamonds and super models higher than bin men.
    So we actually know what people are worth.
    What we struggle with is putting the concept of a price on nature rather than an actual price and the fact that we seem to value rarity more than practicality. This could be because we have sorted out the practical side in the developed world and are willing to loose a bit of that (or pay a little more) as we think we will be better off.

    Not sure I totally agree with killing off one aspect of the natural world will kill of a little bit of all of it. I said about this a few posts back. We don't know exactly what we have and what purpose it serves, and as long as it is accepted that change happens (natural or otherwise). Are we worse of because there are no Dodos, Mammoths or Sabre Tooth Tigers around? Are we we worse off because we have domesticated wild animals for protection, work and food? Are we worse off because we have changed over 70% of the land surface of the planet.
    If we were worse of, surely we would be a diminishing species not an increasing one.
    By putting a value on the surroundings, we have been able to make decisions about what is good or bad for us, we have just not given this value am official price at the national or international level.
    One way would be to play a game. Start will all land valued at the same price, randomly split it up and then distribute it randomly to 75% of the players. Then let the trading begin.
  1.  
    Bilmey, me is too fick 2 b on eeer.......:cry::sad::shamed::confused:

    Hey, have you guys got TV yet:cool:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    Posted By: gustyturbineHey, have you guys got TV yet

    Not recently, nor a gas boiler :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 13th 2012
     
    Nor a mobile nor an iPad nor a patio heater ...

    Posted By: SteamyTeaGo on ST, name your price.
    Posted By: SteamyTeaWe value ... super models higher than bin men.
    So we actually know what people are worth.
    Avoiding the question by derrogation - not what They think, but what do You say You are worth in money terms - your dying or your thriving?

    If that's difficult, it's because of the accumulated connotations of Money as an index of value. Money is not just a neutral value-free medium of exchange - it's loaded with the fundamental dishonesty of the fractional reserve system, the ruthlessness and amorality of the lending culture, the inflated egos and the crushed lives that it engenders ... I wouldn't think to value myself (or my alter ego, Nature) in such shitty currency. To do so would be to set myself (and Nature) up as just another tradeable commodity.

    Some other medium of comparison, even of exchange, might be free of such connotation, and its arithmetic might be very different from Money's traditional linear/additive principle. Value could be based on the effects of my free-will actions on Nature (which means of Nature's actions on itself) - which we've learned, in these days of tipping-points and chaotic attractors, are far from linear. One of me may not be equivalent to half of two of me - two may be far more significant than twice one.

    In asking to value Nature, you've pointed up the need to look at things afresh, rather than trying to force compliant bits into old moulds, while ingeniously justifying ignoring other bits that don't fit.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2012
     
    Posted By: fostertomAvoiding the question by derrogation

    Touchy :wink:

    My value in the marketplaces varies, sometimes positive. Not all of it involved cash transactions (here for instance, even though there is a cash price to me for offering free opinion).
    So if you want one hard and fast price for my services, you can't have one.
    If you want am estimate you can. It will vary from >£Zero <£infinity.
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press