The trouble is that our clowns and idiots are like the fat dads at the kids football match, shouting from the sidelines, telling everyone how the play the game but not wanting to get their football boots n and take part!

The time for standing around shouting is over, our idiots need to get stuck in and take control of the EU.

Posted By: fostertomDon't know where Global Village came from - a bit 70's innit?

Marshall McLuhan, 1960s apparently - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_village_(term)

Marshall McLuhan predicted the Internet as an "extension of consciousness"

The Trucking Company was 1970s.

Posted By: owlmanThe UK "masters" may be idiots at times, clowns at others, but they're OUR clowns and idiots, with all the connotations that brings.

But that's exactly the point: it's your definition of “OUR” that matters. Why the people of one specific geographical area (ie., one particular nation state left over from the 17th century [¹])? Not your village? Not your continent? Personally, I feel more in common with many people scattered around Europe (and other places) than with many (most?) people in Britain.

[¹] Noting that two of the four most populous countries in the EU (I think) are more recent than that.

I've found the debate impossible to follow - on here as much as in the media. Arguments for and against are complex and often built upon somehow knowing how a massive change will impact on a complex system. I do laugh at the political and economic commentators in the media on both sides of the debate predicting how the economy will react - are these people smarter forecasters or better tea leaf readers than those that didn't spot the debt bubble and impending crash during the last crisis? Predicting behaviour in complex systems following a small change is hard, following a major change is just foolish. Nassim Taleb would call those that try Fragilistas! Interestingly, the crash and all the bad stuff that happened has actually made the financial system itself stronger as a result.

I think I'm erring to vote leave. But the only reason is that disruptive change is in my experience very often a good thing, even when the outcome is uncertain. Societies and nations are, Taleb would argue, antifragile – that is disruption makes them stronger. It shakes things up, triggers debate, allows things to change and reset in ways that would otherwise not be possible. We've got an opportunity to trigger a massive shakeup, biggest disruptive event in this country since the WW2. Too big a chance to let pass.

Posted By: MarkyP......... It shakes things up, triggers debate, allows things to change and reset in ways that would otherwise not be possible. We've got an opportunity to trigger a massive shakeup, biggest disruptive event in this country since the WW2. Too big a chance to let pass.

It's the ONLY thing that will bring about the changes that even the "inners" generally concede are necessary for a more representative and fairer union. It's all too cosy at the moment.
There is historically, a huge part of the UK population that successive governments have been unable to convince of it's merits. Island mentality, nah, we have always looked to the wider world. IMO it's because our politicians have never fought our corner effectively.
Lets face it they (EU), need our money, they need our military, they need the City, and the diplomatic skills of our institutions. All the talk of them getting tough with us in the event of Brexit comes from the same wimpish tongues that can't shape the system into something better, and would rather settle for inertia..

Posted By: MarkyPare these people smarter forecasters or better tea leaf readers than those that didn't spot the debt bubble and impending crash during the last crisis?

Many people 'in the know' did predict it. The IMF warned the UK in 1999 that our property prices where too high, we had a massive slow down in churn and a price drop after the 2008 'lock up', but it started in August 2007 (just as my neighbour bought and I put my place on the market.
There were also large investment companies/individuals that foresaw it and were waiting to pounce. What they could not predict was the exact date and time that it would happen, and that is what the Brexit campaign lot are highlighting.

There are some things that are universal in Economic Theory, Supply and Demand (and leaving will reduce demand), Division of Labour (leaving will reduce the Labour pool) and, more on the behavioural side, Crime (we can tolerate a little bit of crime, but not too much).

The world economy is complex, and economists tend to make it even harder to understand. So just start reducing things to a level that is practical i.e. compare it to your own life, and it becomes more manageable.
So say you work in a shop, and you loose (no reason necessary) 20% of your customers. What do you think the likely outcome will be? A pay rise and an extra 2 weeks holiday, a pay cut, or a redundancy notice.

I'm not sure economics will be a lot different one way or the other The Flexcit plan offers a low risk approach that would likely be adopted in the event of an exit which seems more realistic than the lies fed by both sides of the 'debate' - http://www.eureferendum.com/themarketsolution.pdf

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: gyrogear</ "bigoted old women" ...
LOL
gg</blockquote>



I get the joke gyrogear, and I've been called much in my life but a bigoted woman, now that's fighting talk.

I wonder how much of your £9M went on the IN campaign. Whereas the bigots have had to raise their own cash.

Interesting that the immigration figures have just come out (184,000) and from my viewpoint, this is a success. We must have an economy worth moving too, and we can allow that to happen (at the moment) with little restriction.

The population of Penzance is around 21,200 (2011 Census), or 0.048% of the population of England.
If those 184,000 immigrants are dispersed amongst the general population over time, Penzance would have to absorb 10 new people. I am sure we can cope with that, even of every one of them were claiming benefits, living in social housing but ill and actually in hospital.
I suspect that the population of PZ goes up and down by more than that with just normal 'sleepovers' and local population holidays. Summer season is a different matter, I have never counted the number of holiday lets in Penzance, but I suspect it is more than 10.
These numbers really do have to be kept in perspective.

And winklepickers, don't forget the winklepickers.

Out, unequivocally.

If an organisation is so disfunctional that it takes 30+ years to change it's policies requiring a significant proportion of fish to be thrown back into the sea dead because it cannot frame practical it needs reform.

We could add piddling away tens of millions annually ferrying the Euro Parliament to Zombie Sessions Strasburg each month like the Court of King Caratacus to preserve French vanity.

Unfortunately the EU has proven in spades over many decades that it is incapable of any significant reform from the inside.

Either our leaving will trigger reform, or our country will be saved from the nightmare.

I could argue about things like the gradual loss of our Common Law tradition, sovereignty, the inability to make any promises that stick, poor quality reguation imposed on banks etc, but I don't think I need to.

Ferdinand

Education does not seem unduly affected by EU rules and regs. To be honest, I can never remember anything that was EU generated being mentioned. So this is a good things, and will be unaffected by leaving, leaving us with the best educated young people in the world.

Anyone listening to 'The Bottom Line' on Radio 4. There is some bloke called Christopher (makes bras I think) who is talking about the EU meddling. He was quoting an obscure rule about data handling and how it could impact his business. But he said that the rule never came in. What a hero for the Brexit campaign.

Personally I dislike Cameron too. But I don't see this as a personality or party political issue. I see it as an economic issue. I just hope most people will too.

That Christopher on the radio, he gave a great example of red tape hampering his business. Was about chairs wobbling.
Worth a listen:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07c4tqf

Posted By: SteamyTeaI see it as an economic issue.

I see it as a sovereignty issue.

It doesn't really matter who is governing you, whether its the EU or UK gov or any one else for that matter, if there is not transparency or accountability how can citizens make informed decisions that are in any way meaningful??

The ruling elite want neither of these things and from the breadth and depth of discourse its clear that the majority of people are, for the most part in ignorance on these matters