Posted By: fostertomit's just the inevitable result of this particular, iniquitous money system that we're too mesmerised to even question.

So the Bitcoin movement isn't questioning it at all then?

Currency used to have an equal value to the goods or services exchanged. it is true that this part of it had been replaced, but that is more to do with agreed standards and centralisation, rather than anything else.

One advantage of currency is that you can steal it, was hard to steal a service promised. This portability is very useful, it allowed trade between far away places.

We have always had debt, just that we don't always think of gifts as debt, but deep down we expect something of similar value in return, sometime.

Posted By: SteamyTeaCurrency used to have an equal value to the goods or services exchanged.

I think it still does - that is until you cross a border with it
e.g. You get paid a rate / hour that more or less works across the UK. Over here the rate / hour is about 1/4 to 1/5 of the UK, does that mean that the Hungarian worker is worth 1/4 of their UK counterpart or produces 1/4 of the output of a UK worker - or does it mean that the exchange rate applied is wrong?

Posted By: SteamyTeaThe output is partly limited by the size of the population and they sort of access to natural resources the country has.

Not when they are skilled workers on a production line assembling items (e.g.Audis or Suzukis) the parts of which have been manufactured somewhere else.

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryNot when they are skilled workers on a production line assembling items (e.g.Audis or Suzukis) the parts of which have been manufactured somewhere else.

Yes, this is an interesting problem in economics. Many companies have found that outsourcing is not that cost effective in the long run, especially if there were incentives to move to an area that may end.

Posted By: fostertomWhat about robotised production

There was a bit about this in my weekly comic. I shall see if I can find it tomorrow if I get time.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/andrea-leadsom-accused-of-misleading-claims-on-her-cv-a7122296.html

So it seems Ms Leadsom who went on TV to convince everyone to vote leave is not all she appears. Leave supporters claimed she had previously worked for an investment bank and had responsibility for "managing hundreds of people and billions of pounds". Turns out she had nobody working for her and didn't manage any funds. At least she has some experience in Marketing.

Great so now France has the bigger economy having kicked the UK of it's No 5 slot. Next thing will be that everyone will be blaming the experts because whilst they forecast correctly they failed to convince the populous.

Posted By: GotanewlifeGreat so now France has the bigger economy having kicked the UK of it's No 5 slot. Next thing will be that everyone will be blaming the experts because whilst they forecast correctly they failed to convince the populous.

So when do we get our EU refund for being a smaller economy. They where very quick to increase our contributions even if it did include drugs and prostitution.

Posted By: renewablejohnSo when do we get our EU refund for being a smaller economy. They where very quick to increase our contributions even if it did include drugs and prostitution.

From the 1st of December, based on a recalculation this autumn: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-14-601_en.htm
So I guess we should all expect the NHS budget to be increased at the same time, by the same amount?

Lets just hope the NHS isn't paying for too many of their drugs in dollars or euro. Oh, it is: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/brexit-nhs-drug-prices-medicine-patients-effects-what-will-happen-a7117056.html

And that we don't import much medical equipment from anywhere. I guess all those X-Ray machines, MRI and PET scanners are all made in the UK?

Posted By: torrent99Yes Brexit won't HARM anyone will it?

Especially not the pensioners living in the EU who have seen their pension fund values drop due to the stock markets and the money they receive fall because the pound has dropped.

Not wanting play down effects of weaker pound on pensions etc, but when you live abroad and your pension is dependent on the exchange rate then that is one of the risks you take. British have benefited in the past buying property abroad in their favour with a relatively strong pound. Not trying to be horrible to anyone, its swings and roundabouts. In pound will rebound once the markets calm.

Above, I suggested that, even though (or because) Britain (and Belgium) lead the world in the trend towards devolution of power on several levels, not just to the Celtic nations, but to City Mayors, 'Northern Powerhouse' etc,

"Possibly a Brexit vote would be more progressively cathartic, catalytic, than a Bremain vote ... The UK's Celtic nations will get very clear that they don't want to remain part of an even more reactionary ... English Empire, but will clamour for devolved autonomy within a EU - soon followed by the Engish regions and all the other local competencies across Europe - and beyond."

http://theconversation.com/return-of-the-town-hall-will-brexit-bring-british-democracy-closer-to-the-people-62194

The latest NatCen British Social Attitudes Survey http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk shows that
"before [until] the campaign got going, the issue of immigration was not what made poor Brits anti-EU. Brexit was, rather, a measure of their grim hope that any change in their country might just be a change for the better.

What's still missing is that 'the people' haven't yet taken the opportunity which exists, to exercise the authority which comes from intelligent understanding and creative solutions. The 'rightness' and energy that comes with that, can easily overpower the sectional posturing that is characteristic of the political elites and the media.

There's a huge amount of succesful experimentation worldwide into such reinvigoration of 'democracy'
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Empowering-Public-Wisdom-Practical-Citizen-Led/dp/1583945008/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1468058580&sr=8-1&keywords=empowering+public+wisdom
It just hasn't reached public awareness yet.

I tellya - Leave is not going to happen, and anyway the Leave vote wasn't really about Leaving, more anger at 'them' and 'everything'. It's obvious that most of 'them' haven't remotely got the point, and even Chilcot's dissection of awfulness is already forgotten.

On the other hand, the lifeboats are continuing their preparations to leave the sinking rat
https://publiclawforeveryone.com/2016/05/25/the-house-of-lords-constitution-committee-report-on-the-union-and-devolution
Of course their lordships still see the Celts as part of UK therefore out of EU - but they won't manage to keep the cork in that bottle!

Shape-shifting - the EU, "the people's" concerns, the politicians' stance and the negotiations will all be unrecognisably different from what they look like now, by the time we get to the 'end' of them.

Posted By: bot de paille
Although there is a new shit storm about to hit the EU that will make many ppl possibly glad that the leave vote won...

You mean the Italian and German (DB) banking catastrophes?
We won't escape them in or out of the EU, that tidal wave will be worldwide...

(Of course the EU has enacted the BAIL-IN legislation, anyone owed more the 100KEuros will be subject to bail-in i.e. haircuts. The idea is that tax-payers don't have to bail out the banks, the depositors do... not sure if that's going to be sufficient....)

On the other hand..

http://fortune.com/2016/06/27/soros-pound-brexit/

"It appears the 85-year-old lost money betting that the British pound would rise in the wake of the Brexit vote..."