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General: Battery powered everything

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    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2022
     
    What ho one and all,

    Given the thread http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17569&page=1#Item_0

    and the issues regarding standard batteries, I am 'concerned' at the way we appear to being 'guided' into battery everything. Lawn mowers, hedge trimmer, strimmers, chain saws, leaf vacs, nail guns, routers, sanders, multi-tools, planers, vacuum cleaners, loud speakers and of course, cars.

    All these need recharging at some point and in all likelihood, will not do the job on a single charge. I trimmed my hedge recently, took around 4 hours using a mains electric (only had to stop of refreshment!) and petrol hedge (one tank of petrol) trimmer. How long with it have taken with battery and what is the added convenience?

    I live in Surrey and go to the south coast for windsurfing. Where I go, there are no EV charging facilities and with a 200 mile round trip, going by an EV is not a sensible option. On the other hand, a full tank of diesel and I could go there and back many times.

    It seems to me to be madness; but what do I know? Time will tell.
    • CommentAuthorBeau
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2022 edited
     
    "I trimmed my hedge recently, took around 4 hours using a mains electric (only had to stop of refreshment!) and petrol hedge (one tank of petrol) trimmer. How long with it have taken with battery and what is the added convenience?"

    My battery hedge trimmer would have probably done that in one but I do have two batteries. The battery seems to last an age when hedge trimming.

    Looks like I would need both batteries as the AP 300 batteries can do up to 180mins cutting https://www.stihl.co.uk/STIHL-Products/Cordless-power-systems/AP-System-Large-Gardens-Professionals/AP-System-Hedge-Trimmers/22107-1590/HSA-66-Cordless-Hedge-Trimmer.aspx
  3.  
    I take your point about cordless everything (= battery powered) but they are more convenient than mains leads and in terms of petrol driven kit cheaper as well. We just got a battery strimmer because SWIMBO can't start the petrol one. All the builders here use cordless and the first thing they do on site is to plug in the charger with the spare battery. The roofers say the are safer as well without mains leads to get snagged. - It must be horses for courses.

    Re windsurfing - The latest EVs are seeming to get 250 - 300 miles of range which together with a plug it in at home over night option should work and be less polluting than a 'dirty diesel' - all you have to do is pay for a new EV !
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2022 edited
     
    I used to think that battery longevity was going to be the weak spot with EVs, but the early Nissans have proved that concern to be wrong. There are also some firms specialising in EV battery pack replacement.
    Now, I think it's a lack of charging facilities that is partly the Achilles heel of widespread adoption of EVs, plus the price and availability. When you do find a charging station the payment for juice, at least some of the ones I've seen, is tedious having to go through an APP, instead of some sort of credit card system.
  5.  
    have you considered fitting the sail on top of your car ?
  6.  
    battery tools are great but theres definately some tools and jobs that need 240. drilling decent size holes is one.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2022
     
    Some of the new EVs have 230V sockets on them. When that facility becomes widespread and is incorporated into tradesmen's EV vans, some of the heavier battery powered static site stuff e.g. chop saws, tile cutters, heavy hammer drills, may eventually be redundant.
    So, we go full circle.
    • CommentAuthorArtiglio
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2022
     
    A friend is a site manager on london residential projects, corded tools are effectively not allowed, when it is necessary then there has to be a risk assessment signed off and complied with much like a hot work permit. Each floor on a project will have a designated charging station. The likes of the Dewalt 54 flexvolt system has pretty impressive performance and trades are expected to have sufficient batteries to work efficiently.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2022
     
    Posted By: jamesingrambattery tools are great but theres definately some tools and jobs that need 240. drilling decent size holes is one.
    Indeed. My carpenters had the usual array of Makita cordless tools plus loads of spare batteries, but for some jobs would get out the 'electric' drill - a Hilti with a cable. That was used as you say when drilling serious holes in serious lumps of timber. The SDS drill was also 'electric', of course for drilling through concrete etc.

    As others have said, the secret with electric garden tools is to have at least a second set of batteries. That's why the arguments about tool brands will continue until there really is a standard battery fitting. And yes, my hedge trimmer uses one of the four batteries I have for my lawnmower (it uses two at a time), but as Beau says batteries seem to last a fair while in hedge trimmers and strimmers and suchlike.

    Where do you go windsurfing? There might be chargers closer than you think, and there are more popping up all the time. Our local council has just fitted six 'fast' chargers in the local leisure centre car park (under the masses of solar panels they've also fitted above it). IIRC all new chargers must accept contactless credit card charging without any apps, and eventually that'll apply to all chargers but not yet :(

    As PiH says, a 200 mile round trip shouldn't be a big problem for a lot of new cars. Just don't trust the manufacturers' mileage figures though!
    • CommentAuthorRex
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2022
     
    I used the term 'windsurfing' because it is something that most can understand. I used to go windsurfing and certainly, the coast is closer than 100 miles.

    But these days, I do something with a 'sail' called a Kitewing and a two wheeled 'skateboard' and need large areas of flat, compressed sand. That means Camber Sands or Dungerness, which is around a 200 mile round trip. And there is no way anyone will install charging facilities in the parking area.

    In inflatable version my wing is used these days for hydrofoiling surf boards. Mine has an aluminium frame to hold the shape.
  11.  
    My strimmer, chainsaw, etc have tanks for about 300ml of petrol. When burned in a low efficiency engine, that gives about 0.5-1.0 kWh of power.

    An 18v 9ah battery is around 0.15 kWh, and the battery machine is probably designed to use energy more efficiently than the petrol equivalent.

    So two sets of charged batteries is still not quite a replacement for a tank of fuel, but it's not too far off and battery capacities are improving. It's rare that I would use a whole tank of fuel in one session.


    Other issues for me are:
    how many times the batteries can be charged before losing capacity, and whether I will still be able to buy replacements whenever that happens, or have to scrap the machine.
    Also the weight of the battery tool to hold, versus the petrol engine version, especially for hedge trimmers.
    Also the ongoing cost of petrol, oil, plugs and filters and time wasted fiddling with carburettors.
    Also the safety aspects of storing petrol or cutting through the cable.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2022 edited
     
    Interesting you're talking 18v for garden tools, very 'consumer market', not preferring higher-volt machines, 'pro' but also some 'consumer'. Higher volt goes hand in hand with more power and/or battery capacity. And much higher price!

    Actually 18v @ 9ah is quite stonkin - pro? - I haven't seen than on any comsumer m/c e.g. 6ah max from Bosch ALL system.
  13.  
    Ryobi do a 18V 9Ah battery, I haven't tried their garden tools tho.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2022 edited
     
    Good - I went to Ryobi website, whereas previously I'd seen R's pole hedge trimmer advertised in a v 'retail' mag, which didn't impress.
    Yes - there's the big battery, also Youtube hi-duty (chainsaw) comparison with a look-alike battery at 1/3 the price. Very informative indeed.

    Continuing my *fascinating* story from http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17569. the Bosch strimmer has burnt out its motor a second time, so enough of Bosch. Anyone want a ALL charger and two batteries?

    On Ryobi website, the bare trimmer is £!39.99, same with charger and 2ah battery £129.99 ("£70 off" then "£10 off"). No more questions - ordered it!
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2022
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenSo two sets of charged batteries is still not quite a replacement for a tank of fuel
    After you use one set, you put them on charge and continue using the second set. After that, depending on your charger and batteries and how much you have to do, you either take the fully or partially charged first set out of the charger and carry on, or you stop to have a cup of tea whilst the charge finishes. Or you buy a third set of batteries, if you're really obsessive.

    Don't forget that bigger batteries are heavier. So two 20 V 4 Ah in a lawnmower are fine, and so is one in a hedge trimmer or similar hand held tool for me, but if my wife was using it, she would probably want a 2 Ah battery. 9 Ah would be fine in a tool that was supported by itself, but not on a handheld I would think.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2022
     
    Posted By: fostertomBosch strimmer has burnt out its motor a second time
    Similar to my own decision to stop buying Bosch tools. Motor burnt out, would cost more to replace the motor than to buy a new strimmer. Bosch guarantee requires original packaging - who keeps that?
  17.  
    There's no mains power at one of the sites where I use petrol machines, so thanks but no, I won't be trying to get one battery recharged before the second one is used up. If there was power, then obviously I would be swapping between a few cheap 2ah batteries instead of looking at £300-worth of big batteries.

    Maybe one day all cars will have a 230V socket, and then nowhere will be out of reach of electric tools, rechargeable or otherwise. Maybe before then the weight of batteries will reduce, so I will no longer be concerned about
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenthe weight of the battery tool to hold, versus the petrol engine version, especially for hedge trimmers.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2022
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenAlso the weight of the battery tool to hold, versus the petrol engine version, especially for hedge trimmers.
    Battery tools are generally lighter than the petrol equivalent.
  19.  
    But not with the biggest batteries on them, as I, you and your wife all agree!
  20.  
    I've sometimes thought that a good compromise would be to standardise all portable power tools at 12 volt, and then for remote situations carry a small car battery and use a light lead with a battery-shaped plug on the end.

    I have tried once driving a landrover to remoter locations and using an inverter and ordinary mains tools, but it needs a big inverter. Even one I thought was powerful enough had the speed but slowed up significantly once actually required to do real work.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2022
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenBut not with the biggest batteries on them, as I, you and your wife all agree!
    Right, but why would you put the biggest battery on a portable tool then? Better to have two or more smaller batteries.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2022
     
    Posted By: Cliff PopeI've sometimes thought that a good compromise would be to standardise all portable power tools at 12 volt, and then for remote situations carry a small car battery and use a light lead with a battery-shaped plug on the end.
    Maybe once it would have been but not now. Firstly lead acid car batteries have nothing like the energy density of lithium batteries, so you're carrying excess weight. Secondly, 12 V is much too low a voltage to standardise on. All the devices I have use 20 V, and some are going to 40 V or even 80V. Cars use 400 V and are moving to 800 V.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2022
     
    There seems to be a market for portable power banks that can deliver 230 volts and below. The first I came across was by Festool some 12 months ago that claims to keep your mains tools powered all day. Charge every night for next day. Since then, I have seen similar offerings but a bigger range from the likes of Bluetti and others which can be charged from vehicles, from mains, portable solar, and petrol generators. Living on a small holding and having to work in the fields away from a power source they have their attraction except at the moment are expensive. I have some petrol driven tools but me and 2 stroke don't get on, quality 4 stoke engines are much more reliable. Having a number of 230v tools does make the portable power stations look attractive. Anyone got one?
    • CommentAuthorSteveZ
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2022
     
    Battery Life

    My Eckman extendable hedge trimmer is a mechanically well-made bit of kit. The electrical side of it is rubbish. The 20v li-ion battery failed after 14 months, funny that on a 12 month warranty! Checking any review website told me I was not alone. Needless to say, the sellers and manufacturers pretended ignorance of any problems and sheltered behind behind the 1 year warranty

    As it was a well-made machine I made a set of offset strip connectors to use my deWalt drill battery instead, which worked OK. Eventually I got fed up with the slightly wobbly result and rebuilt the original Eckman battery using good cells from a scrap Bosch drill battery. I have a mini-welder and various bits to assemble, test and charge Li-ion batteries - just hobby stuff. The result is what the original strimmer should have been if they spent a little more attention on the rubbish charger, which caused a lot of the problems.

    During my experiments with the thing I also made a belt fitted battery pack with a plug-in lead for the strimmer, which also worked pretty well too. It also made the tool lighter, but trimming our high hedges I kept pulling the lead off. Good idea though as the battery weight comes off the tool and sits easily around your waist.

    The 20v copes with quite thick twigs and branches, about little finger thickness, so I am happy with 20v
    Most 'failed' LI-ion batteries have only a few faulty cells but the charger/tester doesn't know that and can fail to charge. There are ways around that but beyond the scope of this comment and possibly dangerous! Whisper if you're interested.

    I am a convert to battery power when suitable. An expensive 48v Stihl battery chainsaw only lasts 40 minutes of working hard, so useless for more a short trip to lop and chop a few branches.
  25.  
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenBut not with the biggest batteries on them, as I, you and your wife all agree!
    Right, but why would you put the biggest battery on a portable tool then? Better to have two or more smaller batteries.
    because
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenThere's no mains power at one of the sites where I use petrol machines
    and
    two sets of charged [9Ah] batteries is still not quite a replacement for a tank of fuel, but it's not too far off

    Instead of taking along a tank of fuel, or two 9Ah batteries, I could take (say) nine pre-charged 2Ah batteries with me, but then the cost would become a bit silly. So I'm waiting a bit longer for battery capacity, price and weight to continue improving.

    Site power tools are typically 110Vac , which is actually two phases at ±55Vac centre-tapped. I could see site battery tools standardising on 54Vdc for familiarity, even though DC can go to higher voltages and still be considered SELV.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2022
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenInstead of taking along a tank of fuel, or two 9Ah batteries, I could take (say) nine pre-charged 2Ah batteries with me, but then the cost would become a bit silly. So I'm waiting a bit longer for battery capacity, price and weight to continue improving.
    Well the 4Ah ones I buy in Lidl cost me £25, so five of those is £125 for 20 Ah @ 20 V. I see a single Ryobi 9 Ah @ 18 V is advertised on their site at £160. So I'm not sure where the silliness is. :bigsmile:
  27.  
    If I wanted unbranded batteries, I can get them even cheaper from ali-express... but no thank you! :wink:

    Lithium batteries fundamentally are multiples of 3.6V cells, so five cells gives you 18V. However you can put a superficial surface charge on them to bump them up to 20V, if you have the kind of marketing department who indulge in that kind of thing!

    (Edit to add: the standard cells hold around 2 to 3 Ah, so five of them in series makes a 18V 2Ah battery. To get 18V 4Ah you can use five sets each of two cells in parallel. As well as the extra charge, the parallel sets of cells can deliver more current, which is beneficial for some powerful garden tools such as brushcutters, which now seem to come with higher Ah batteries and might not work with the smaller batteries.)
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2022
     
    I ditched my petrol hedge trimmer and plugged in electric chainsaw and replaced with yellow 18V equivalents that are better!
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 4th 2022
     
    yello - so what make?
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeOct 6th 2022
     
    If anyone is interested in battery pack refurbishment you could try here.

    https://www.strikalite.co.uk/

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