Green Building Forum - Thermal images of new build

Thermal images of new build

Newbuild — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 18:55:35 +0000

Hello all - I recently took some thermal images of a 2020 newbuild, would anyone like to see some and discuss?

Thermal images of new build

tony — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 19:22:28 +0000

Yes please!!!! I have seen some pretty bad things on thermal imaging of new builds, like disastrously bad.

Thermal images of new build

Newbuild — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 19:36:06 +0000

Hopefully these at least serve some educational purpose. If motivated enough I will get them redone by a thermal professional, maybe after any improvement work if it's required.

This is a eves junction. So directly above is the roof space.

Thermal images of new build

Peter_in_Hungary — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 19:47:28 +0000

Questions - Would this constitute enough of a fault to make a complaint to the builder? And if such a complaint was made would it stand up?
Is there any standard by which such a result could be judged to be either faulty or adequate workmanship?

Thermal images of new build

Newbuild — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 20:08:54 +0000

As far as I understand the situation is complex. Maybe experts can help!

Here is another one showing the importance of insulation at the gable ends where the gap behind plasterboard to the wall of room below can be exposed to roof air.

Thermal images of new build

djh — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 20:44:16 +0000

Sorry, but what's the second picture actually a picture of? Maybe post a normal picture of the same area?

Thermal images of new build

Newbuild — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 20:52:15 +0000

It's from the attic looking at the gable end. No insulation was between the gable end and the first roof truss - so there was direct route for air down the back of the room belows plasterboard.

This is a closer image which might help.

Thermal images of new build

jms452 — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 21:36:50 +0000

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryQuestions - Would this constitute enough of a fault to make a complaint to the builder? And if such a complaint was made would it stand up?

I'd cough up, get a respectable thermal surveyors report and make a complaint. If they refuse to rectify it go through their complaints process and if they still refuse go to the national media naming the builder.

I can imagine either the Guardian or the Telegraph publishing it although only (based on a respectable surveyor's report and not diy images).

Thermal images of new build

tony — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 21:47:29 +0000

Trouble it is the tip of an iceberg.

First pic, no insulation in the eaves box zone, air infiltration/missing or poorly fitted insulation against the trusses. Danger of condensation and mould growth on the wall near the ceiling.

Thermal images of new build

Newbuild — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 22:23:36 +0000

It's been an interesting learning experience to say the least.

For instance in the building most windows and doors aren't really over the cavity closers at all, frames sat forward on the outer leaf, so in some places internal plasterboard is touching outer leaf or the outer lintel if on a head.

I really do recommend picking up a thermal camera if you can, it makes troubleshooting all kinds of issues very easy. These images probably don't compare to a more high end unit, but being able to get 300px images at a consumer level is an amazing feat of technology. Can easily make out all plasterboard dabs etc.

What's nice is all this knowledge can transfer to my friends self-build who is considering a Walter Segal derivative.

Thermal images of new build

Jonti — Fri, 05 Mar 2021 06:34:43 +0000

Pretty much standard shoddy work practiced by many UK building firms. It really boils down to poor building control inspections. The only way to ensure a decent standard is to self build, know what you are looking for and keep a very close eye on the builder at 'ALL' times.

Thermal images of new build

Peter_in_Hungary — Fri, 05 Mar 2021 07:16:37 +0000

Posted By: JontiPretty much standard shoddy work practiced by many UK building firms. It really boils down to poor building control inspections. The only way to ensure a decent standard is to self build, know what you are looking for and keep a very close eye on the builder at 'ALL' times.

Much the same problem over here - builders take short cuts without attention to detail and in the main don't understand the importance of the insulation details and air tightness and you have to watch every stage. Too often the aim is to get the top surface looking OK and never mind what is underneath.

IMO the only fix is going to be for enough people to make complaints that stick so that it becoms easier and cheaper for the job to be done 'right first time' rather than call backs for (expensive) remedial works.

Thermal images of new build

Jonti — Fri, 05 Mar 2021 20:30:25 +0000

The only problem with people complaining is the big building companies just pay complaints lip service but don't generally do anything. Having spent several decades in both Scandinavia and Switzerland I have seen what quality building companies are how new builds should be done. Now there are some good firms here in the UK but by and large we are in the dark ages with a generally very poor quality of build, even worse customer service and no meaningful consumer protection.

Thermal images of new build

Newbuild — Fri, 05 Mar 2021 23:27:40 +0000

Here is another, to keep the ball rolling!

Thermal images of new build

tony — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 07:32:14 +0000

Looks like draught between plastic sill and frame, and little or no insulation behind the window lining board and air leakage from outside into the void between it and any insulation/closer

I would like to see what is behind that lining board, likely the whole estate is the same ðŸ˜¢

Here is one from the 90â€™s https://readinguk.org/draughtbusters/basic-techniques/walls-and-windows/

Thermal images of new build

revor — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 08:18:03 +0000

When I was doing my build I asked my BCO to do the insulation check on what I had done for the cavities and was told insulation was not part of the their remit and expected builders to construct to the regulations. They were concerned about structural issues such as pre foundation concrete pour checks roof structure pre slating fire prevention, and ventilation. I had to reject something like 400 PIR cavity boards because it was evident putting them in they were not square and each board added left a gap which got bigger. Job stopped whilst awaited replacements as they were T&G which had been made special for me. My brickie went onto another job a builder would have carried on and the thermal performance would have been compromised. BC can't be everywhere I had a haulier bring me some stone and told me he had delivered cheap aggregate to a site so the builder could part backfill the trenches already passed by BCO so as to save on the concrete. Having seen the photos above I wonder how my work ( I personally did all the insulation and detailing around openings) would fair with a thermal imaging survey. Builders will do it as quickly and as cheaply as possible as quality costs time besides I do not think they have got the underpinning knowledge as to why they do what they do.

Thermal images of new build

jms452 — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 08:27:25 +0000

Posted By: tonyHere is one from the 90â€™shttps://readinguk.org/draughtbusters/basic-techniques/walls-and-windows/" rel="nofollow" >https://readinguk.org/draughtbusters/basic-techniques/walls-and-windows/

That's awesome Tony. I've never heard of anyone (else) doing that job before and very relevant to a project I'm looking at.

How did you cut out the masonry spanning the cavity?
Did you add extra wall ties around the window?

Thermal images of new build

Peter_in_Hungary — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 09:00:38 +0000

Looking at the above it occurs to me that there would be a job for someone with suitable credentials to look at new builds for both thermal failures as above plus below standard air tightness and claim against the builders on behalf of the new owners on a no win no fee basis in much the same way as is now done frequently against the NHS for cock-ups

Thermal images of new build

Newbuild — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 09:26:11 +0000

Posted By: tonyLooks like draught between plastic sill and frame, and little or no insulation behind the window lining board and air leakage from outside into the void between it and any insulation/closer

I would like to see what is behind that lining board, likely the whole estate is the same ðŸ˜¢

Here is one from the 90â€™s https://readinguk.org/draughtbusters/basic-techniques/walls-and-windows/

I actually read this exact thing when I was starting research into this. So thankyou!

Here is another; composite door performance.

Thermal images of new build

bxman — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 11:19:04 +0000

They look good enough for me . No chance you live in the west midlands ?

That is quite an expensive camera I suspect, could you share the details please .

Thanks for the post I am sure I am not the only one that has benefited from the information .

Best wishes Patrick

Thermal images of new build

Newbuild — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 12:17:20 +0000

These were from a FLIR E5xt WiFi.

I'm sure you could get indicative images from a cheaper sensor but I think this resolution is just enough to show things like stud bridges and dot and dabs quite easily. It's also extremely helpful to have the dual camera overlay.

Pretty soon you will see quite a reduction in thermal camera price even at these higher resolutions - they are being adopted into lots of car models so demand for the sensors is higher. (There are even projects to take a Â£130 scrap car module and turn it into a handheld camera called openIRV).

Having one on hand is useful because you can bring the property up to heat slowly and then take images, in ideal conditions outside or quite rapidly heat a room to detect things such as wet areas or leaks.

Thermal images of new build

tony — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 13:28:41 +0000

John, there were plenty of wall ties, every course up the reveal

Blocks snapped nicely with a bolster if tricky tungsten tipped sabre saw did it nicely

Thermal images of new build

jms452 — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 15:09:28 +0000

Posted By: tonyBlocks snapped nicely with a bolster if tricky tungsten tipped sabre saw did it nicely

Thanks Tony

We have lime mortar so I have used one of these to avoid shaking bricks loose, does an lovely job and no depth limit (but it takes a while):
https://www.amazon.co.uk/EXPERT-750MM-MASONRY-SAW-Thermalite/dp/B00E1F0XGQ

Thermal images of new build

tony — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 16:08:35 +0000

You can cut aerated concrete blocks with an old hard point saw

Thermal images of new build

borpin — Mon, 08 Mar 2021 08:41:32 +0000

This is so sad and an indictment of the industry. If only it was an isolated case, but it is endemic.

Personally I would not touch any new build with a barge pole and if any of my family or friends were considering buying one, tell them to make a TI survey plus a proper air test part of the acceptance criteria.

Thermal images of new build

Simon Still — Mon, 08 Mar 2021 09:34:54 +0000

Posted By: borpin
Personally I would not touch any new build with a barge pole and if any of my family or friends were considering buying one, tell them to make a TI survey plus a proper air test part of the acceptance criteria.

Agree it's endemic - I've watched new homes go up around me and the attention paid to insulation detailing is minimal. This image is a major extension to a friends house that they posted pictures of on social media recently - look at the gaps in that cavity insulation.

https://ibb.co/LtGSDC2

[and what is it with this forum? it doesn't support embedding externally hosted images with standard HTML? ]

Posted By: borpin
Personally I would not touch any new build with a barge pole and if any of my family or friends were considering buying one, tell them to make a TI survey plus a proper air test part of the acceptance criteria.

But what *would* you tell them to buy? Despite issues talked about here a new build is still likely to be better than anything else. Not everyone can self build - we don't have the land available and it's a stressful process that needs particular access to finance and, if not to end up with the same problems as a 'developer built' needs a lot of skill/knowledge/time.

Ideally I'd not live in anything I'd not built myself again but that might not be possible.

Posted By: Jonti The only way to ensure a decent standard is to self build, know what you are looking for and keep a very close eye on the builder at 'ALL' times.

Or, of course, do the work yourself (which is what we did on the insulation and airtighting.). But we still have 'known' issues that we didn't spot in the design and couldn't correct in the build - stuff we left to architect and frame company assuming they would know more than us.

Thermal images of new build

modernvictorian — Mon, 08 Mar 2021 11:11:02 +0000

I picked up a similar camera from eBay. Hoping to sell on for a similar price when finished. It is the type you can attach to your phone so probably nowhere near as a good as a professional camera but provided some useful images of the 'before'.

Thermal images of new build

Newbuild — Mon, 08 Mar 2021 12:55:40 +0000

As far as I am aware the E4 / E5 / E6 / E8 range will hold value - they are essentially the same hardware inside. Luckily now they are getting competition from Testo.

The units that attach to your phone traditionally have lots of issues with the internal battery, so might not be too useful for occasional between long periods of time - but the sensors inside can be used in other things if you know what you are doing.

The images are not from a large site nor a large developer, all homes over Â£500,000 and the builder seems to be fairly well respected.

It does go to show how difficult it can be to get these kinds of things recognised and dealt with - id imagine it becomes more problematic the longer you wait, often becoming a bigger issue years later.

But yes, very handy tool that im sure more people will be able to use as costs come down, its kind of like magic - I couldn't find many decent images of features; hence wanting to share.

Thermal images of new build

jms452 — Sat, 13 Mar 2021 12:12:52 +0000

Use of gagging orders in new build homes on BBC4 now - missing insulation mentioned:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000t4l3

So if you spend the time and effort to prove missing insulation as part of the resolution you could be banned from telling other owners about it under threat of having the fix drawn out for even longer...

This is obvious with hindsight but scandalous.

Thermal images of new build

WillInAberdeen — Sat, 13 Mar 2021 12:20:56 +0000

Text version here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56376112