Tue, 19 Dec 2023 04:46:34 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263907#Comment_263907 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263907#Comment_263907 Wed, 13 Dec 2017 22:29:06 +0000 tony
U values for hall walls, floor and ceiling =?

U-valises for outside walls of changing rooms shower areas etc, floors, ceilings internal = ?

Air tightness target for whole building

Heating forsports Hall, gas is available, and energy source for hot water and heating other areas?

Ventilation strategy?]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263917#Comment_263917 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263917#Comment_263917 Thu, 14 Dec 2017 17:38:49 +0000 barney
Air tightness - aim for 2.0m3/m2/hr @ 50Pa and probably settle for 3.0m3/m2/hr @50Pa

Direct fired gas radiant or LTHW radiant for the sports hall -LTHW rads for the rest - or if feasible use UFH (keeps the floors dry).

Direct Gas fired DHW with large capacity storage calorifiers (Lochinvar as an example) or plate HEX and lower capacity calorifiers so you can divert virtually all the boiler power to DHWS for short periods to create a semi instantaneous flow system. How much you store (and lose) is a function of how often you plan using the place)

Ventilation - I'd go for a demand based (CO2 monitoring) supply and extract with a heat recovery using LTHW for pre heat and constant minimum off coil temperature(say 18C) for the hall and a smaller heat recovery AHU for the rest of the place (heated via the LTHW and using a similar strategy)

A few big ventilators in the roof to allow much increased airflow in summer (no AHU heating enabled) for upper temperature control - you really don't want to be deploying cooling

That said, you may need some cooling if the activities are particularly onerous and the occupancy is very high - dance studio as an example

Regards

Barney]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263919#Comment_263919 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263919#Comment_263919 Thu, 14 Dec 2017 17:46:02 +0000 Nick Parsons
No, seriously, why would you go for higher than about 0.12? (Maybe even sub-0.1 on roof and maybe floors.

Seems to me ventilation is the key issue. Can you adequately vent the smell of x no. sweaty athlete's with MVHR-type performance (as per Barney's point above)?]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263920#Comment_263920 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263920#Comment_263920 Thu, 14 Dec 2017 18:10:55 +0000 barney
You could employ a DX heat recovery within the AHU (evaporator and condenser in the relevant air streams), but the capital cost might very well not give a huge improvement over a cross flow HEX if you are operating a variable flow rate responding to CO2 monitoring (as a proxy for air quality)

I've just reviewed a proposal for a circa 4m3/second AHU with pretty good casing thermal performance (heat loss and bridging) and a good quality heat exchanger that achieving about 73% heat recovery at design condition - to give an order of magnitude of what's available at reasonable cost

Regards

Barney]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263921#Comment_263921 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263921#Comment_263921 Thu, 14 Dec 2017 18:15:01 +0000 ActivePassive
Also, the occupancy (periods) is relatively low, I would avoid UHF, as its not that responsive in a hall, although it does have the benefit of keeping anyone sitting on the floor feeling warm. Having done energy assessments on sports halls, the UHF is often poorly controlled, and ends up being left on for too long leading to much higher than predicted energy bills.

You could consider heat recovery on your shower water.

MVHR may also provide to be uneconomic as it will add a significant extra cost to the build, given the volume of air which potentially needs moving, and as per my first point your heat losses are going to be less anyway.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263922#Comment_263922 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263922#Comment_263922 Thu, 14 Dec 2017 18:42:01 +0000 barney
No connection to Hoval, but I used similar units on a sports hall about 2 years ago

http://www.hoval.co.uk/blog/com/sport-halls-ventilation-how-much-fresh-air-has-to-be-provided-tips-for-planners

Regards

Barney]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263924#Comment_263924 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263924#Comment_263924 Thu, 14 Dec 2017 20:14:01 +0000 tony
Thanks for the input, all very useful]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263932#Comment_263932 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263932#Comment_263932 Fri, 15 Dec 2017 07:10:00 +0000 gravelld http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263952#Comment_263952 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263952#Comment_263952 Fri, 15 Dec 2017 14:19:02 +0000 TimSmall
http://www.recair.com/voluminous.php

... just uses lots of domestic MVHR blocks (this is the company that makes the heat exchange blocks in about 75% of the high-efficiency domestic units by multiple suppliers).

Small, high-SCOP mini-splits for auxilliary rooms and changing rooms?

https://www.carltonsales.co.uk/mitsubishi-electric-zen-msz-ln25vgr-air-conditioning-system-natural-white.html (there's also a 3.5kW version in the same range).

Given the low delta-T needed for the main space, may be low-temperature HP UFH there too?

Definitely go for shower water heat recovery if possible, and low flow heads - personally I like this one:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272946979261

Some sort of dynamic modelling might be worth considering for overheating etc.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263970#Comment_263970 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263970#Comment_263970 Fri, 15 Dec 2017 17:58:47 +0000 Doubting_Thomas http://www.bere.co.uk/projects/mayville-community-centre-passivhaus-retrofit-85-savings

I seem to recall that they used bulk air-heating as this was compatible with the passivhaus fabric targets and allowed for the intermittent use patterns - i.e. a quick blast in the morning when people arrive and then allow the building to cool down at other times.

The biggest challenge in most Sports Halls that I've worked on was actually acoustics - can't have many soft absorbent surfaces at the level of noise generation. Admittedly these were schools where lessons will take place in the hall, but worth considering nonetheless. The solution could end up helping other problems if you, say, lined the hall in a perforated timber that also concealed conventional radiators for instance.

Diffuse and constant light is another thing that can be overlooked. The Sport England guidance on this is actually quite good. Again from memory, games like Badminton are particularly sensitive to decent lighting to the point where artificial light may be the only way to achieve the uniformity required to let you actually perceive the shuttlecock. May not be relevant depending on the context, but give it some thought as you'll no doubt want to keep windows to a minimum anyway for heat loss reasons.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263979#Comment_263979 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263979#Comment_263979 Sat, 16 Dec 2017 00:02:40 +0000 Rick_M http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263981#Comment_263981 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15453&Focus=263981#Comment_263981 Sat, 16 Dec 2017 08:57:35 +0000 Nick Parsons