So, if we vote leave, the only thing we know will change is that we'll have a period of uncertainty whilst new deals are struck?

We WILL still have to:
- pay lots to EU for access to single market
- have to have free movement
- adopt EU rules / laws etc

Also we will still have government that does things no one voted for and didn't appear in any manifesto.

Based on our ability to negotiate good deals..."I have in my hand a piece of paper..." or look what a great deal I got in Europe" (add any PM's name from last 40 years)...I kinda want to vote leave, but just can't justify it

Just cos EU does it badly doesn't mean it will cease to be if we leave, nor does it mean we can do it better alone.

Posted By: owlmanI don't have much regard for the SNP stance on the debate. They are all in favour of leaving the UK. Don't want to be ruled by Westminster etc. etc.. Yet they would happily sign up to be ruled by Brussels. What a load of hypocrites, they are just haters of the English. Does that constitute racism?

Could it be a result, perhaps, of Westminster having been run by right-wing parties for the last 37 years and Scotland tending more towards the left wing?

Why would we have to pay for access to the single market? Even if Brussels did impose that, then we could invent something and reciprocate. Trade is two way and the figures are in our favour. It'd all be up for negotiation and horse trading.
We have free movement with most of the world, but on our own, we'd set the rules not Brussels.
The rules on goods/specifications/ content etc. etc. wouldn't be a problem, why should it, our industry is geared up for it, we sell globally.
Apropos bits of paper, note how the stay campaign haven't exactly been shouting from the rooftops the "good deal bit of paper" that Cameron negotiated. That's been quietly shelved perhaps because it never was a bit of paper, just a gentleman agreement, to be broken, when it suits.

I received a letter the other day regarding the distortion of food markets, the CAP, and EU trade barriers harming African farmers. If anyone's interested.

Sorry mate what a load of waffle. Two industries with great future behind them. Whisky sales have been steady increasing the last decade one blip doesn't mean it's in the decline. As for fishing, landings in the UK have been decreasing in quantity but the fish taken out British water hasn't, just European fishing boats been giving a slice of the cake. We have local boats registering in Norway /European countries and have quota thrown at them. We steamed from Shetland to fish of St kilda, we didn't pass one British boat but did pass Norwegian, Danish, German, French and Spanish trawlers....

Two of the most productive fishing ports are in the SW, how comes they can compete in the EU market? I really see boats with anything other then PZ on the sides down here (some FL).
I seem to remember that fishing used to account for 1% of GDP back when the Cod Wars were on.
Going to have to grow that industry a hell of a lot to make a country viable.

Posted By: willie.macleodThe first link, headline apart does not back up your claims at all Ed,

Steamy isn't either of the two regular Eds on here (me and AtomicBISF).

Well there are certainly things I'd change about aspects of EU democracy, policy and practice (and TTIP should be be scrapped, if the leaks are to be believed), but I'm right behind Ed Davies' views on this so far.

And based on their record over the past 30+ years, I see very little evidence that any UK Government would be capable of handling things better under our current constitution. The only red tape likely to be cut are protections for workers and the environment - most of the rest of it would just be replaced by different UK red tape. And there would be no areas in which the government would be able to use the EU as an shield to resist the 'something must be done, now' mentality of the press.

Nor do I see that leaving the EU would provide vast new opportunities for business that don't already exist. And as the pound falls, the EU migrants head home, and UK pensioners return from the Costa Brava, the economy would go into recession (wiping out the small saving in EU contributions) and the NHS would fall over from (even worse) staff shortages - until the press demand that 'something must be done' and we start recruiting migrants from elsewhere to get the country running again. Or enter negotiations to become the 51st US state.

So you can guess which way I'll be voting :)

We tend to treat the NHS as a religion in this country don't we.

My view is that the real debate is about immigration and not the economy. Just remember that in every society where immigration is normal, the economy is better than ones where is not.
But for some reason, the British think that any foreigner is just here to claim from 'our generous benefit system'. As I live in one of the poorest regions in the EU, I can give anyone that wants a quick tour of what 'our generous benefit system' produces. And Cornwall does not have many EU immigrants compared to most parts of the country.

I also think that the majority of people still think that immigration is the same as is was in 1972 when Uganda expelled the Asians.

I can't see the EU ever working effectively.
To do that there has to be political union. That lack of political union is why the Euro is constantly having problems.
I see no real appetite for a true pan European military force either, so the first duty of Government is unachievable also. They hide behind NATO.
There is no patriotism for Europe that still only exists at national level.

So what's left, a bureaucracy that issues meddling directives. They want to Govern but cant and they refuse to stay put as purely trading block.

Britain has historically suffered worse that most, IMO, The founding Nations less so. France and others steadfastly refuse any amendment to the CAP, which gobbles up nearly 40% of the budget. It and tariffs distort world markets and dis-incentivises poor Nations.
We should have been as steadfast in relinquishing control of our waters. But the UK pro Europe lobby bent over backwards to join the club, sold us out.
This is the chance to right a wrong and maybe the shock effect to the rest will be such that Brussels will make some meaningful change. They'll certainly not do it of their own accord, too many vested interests.

Magna Carta, Habeas Corpus, Bill of Rights, Abolition of Slavery, Reform Act. to mention a few. All obviously not the products of the Johnny come lately EU. Why would we need the unelected EU to tell us how to behave or govern ourselves, we've given the world more than the EU has, and still do.
It's a matter of looking at the wider world and not just the cosy insular world of the EU.
Now that's real vulnerability Gotanewlife.

Immigrants: the traditional people to kick throughout the centuries, whenever there are economic problems. The 1290 expulsion of the Jews from England (blamed for the economic problems); Aliens Act 1905 (introduced amid anti-Semitic and anti-Irish sentiment following late 18th century contraction); anti-Semitism in Germany in the 30s (fueled by the Great Depression); expulsion of Asians from Uganda (blamed for economic problems); opposition to Commonweath & Irish immigrants in the UK in the 1970s (on the back of economic problems)...

Nationalistic patriotism: An 18th century invention that stands alongside religion as a major cause of war. I'd much rather have international cooperation instead.

EU bureaucracy: Employees of European Commission + Council of Europe secretariat + European Parliament employee = ~36,500 people. British Civil Service: ~405,573 full time equivalents. Northern Ireland Civil Service = ~25,066. Scottish Government workforce = ~6162. I'd say the numbers of EU bureaucrats is surprisingly small.

Meddling directives: Approved by elected MEPs and by the European Council (consisting of all the EU the heads of state / government, albeit unanimity is frequently not required). Such as the ones that eliminated mobile roaming charges, provide environmental protection, and require compensation if flights are delayed. So I'm not going to agree with every detail of every directive, but neither am I going to approve every detail of every meddling UK law.

Common Agricultural Policy: Used to gobble up 71% of the EU budget in 1984, but France and other nations have passed a series of reforms that have reduced it to 39% in 2013. Yes, it could do with further reform. And it would probably have been more to our liking if we'd joined the EEC from the start and been able to shape it in the first place, instead of deciding to join (and help found) the rival European Free Trade Association instead - and then changing our minds when EFTA turned out to be ineffective, and our trade with the rest of the world failed to take off (despite allegedly being a great trading nation and having the freedom to do trade deals with all the countries of the world, even with the advantage of close Commonwealth ties).

Posted By: owlmanI can't see the EU ever working effectively.
To do that there has to be political union. That lack of political union is why the Euro is constantly having problems.

There's always scope for improvement, and I'd certainly be happy to see greater political union and enhanced democratic powers at the EU level.

Posted By: SteamyTeaCornwall does not have many EU immigrants compared to most parts of the country

The White West (incl Devon)

The other thing people forget is that Brussels wouldn't actually have to introduce new tariffs on UK exports to the EU. Existing EU tariffs on goods made outside the EU would just apply automatically the day the UK left. It would then be up to the UK to negotiate them away.

Further to my reference to the failure to thrive under EFTA, I've dug up a related article "A British free-trade deal outside the EU? History shows that's easier said than done":

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12182032/A-British-free-trade-deal-outside-the-EU-History-shows-thats-easier-said-than-done.html

I'm out, and the scare tactics from the politicians for "in" is convincing me even more! I have never wanted a European State, it is a train to a destination we are best not to go, so let's get off the train.

I also like this letter in the Radio Times

“I’m told there will be a national referendum next month on whether the national institution that is Sir David Attenborough should be renamed Boaty McBoatface. Confusion reigns. Some say a change of name is vital. Others believe that any change now would mean disaster for the British economy, including mass unemployment. I am relying on our broadcasters to shed more light on this important issue.”