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Energy Assessment: Who would like their house Thermally modelled?

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    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2012 edited
     
    Hi all.

    I'm looking for a building to use for assessment as part of an Undergraduate Module at the University of Glamorgan. The building will be dynamically modelled using TAS

    The exact details of what is to be done and why are yet to be decided though at the very least the willing contributor could expect to get predicted energy consumption for various design options and strategies. In the past the students have been asked to dynamically model a [new] minimum compliance building as a base case, and then to make changes to get to passive house levels of design. I'm thinking of changing it this year to examining and upgrading an older existing building, maybe to passive house levels or perhaps in the context of the Green Deal

    If there is anyone interested it doesn't matter whether the house is built or at a design stage but I would need electronic CAD drawings. I'd also welcome input as to what you all think about the focus of such a project.

    Please feel free to ask or whisper any questions

    Thanks in advance

    Mike
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2012
     
    Posted By: Mike Georgeexamining and upgrading an older existing building
    Nice one - choose one with thick heavy walls and see the trump card that old buildings hold over new flimsy (i.e. cavity wall) ones!
  3.  
    I'd be interested if you could take an existing hot2000 model and put that into TAS to compare - if so, I'd be willing to supply the model of my house (which has been empirically verified to be fairly accurate through several years of real world energy consumption and weather data).

    Paul in Montreal.
  4.  
    Hi Paul,

    That's a very interesting offer- thanks

    I've had a year away from TAS so I'll need to investigate if that's possible. Will do so.
  5.  
    Posted By: Mike GeorgeThat's a very interesting offer- thanks
    I've had a year away from TAS so I'll need to investigate if that's possible. Will do so.


    You might have to do the import by hand - but the hot2000 model has enough detail, I think, that you should be able to recreate it in TAS. Of course, I can provide some architectural drawings which should help.

    Cheers,

    Paul.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2012
     
    The latest from Bentley seems to be that all 3 of Bentley-badged Tas, Hevacomp, and Energy Simulator (US-ified Hevacomp) are now integrated direct into Microstation, AECOsim etc without need for translation of geometry.
    • CommentAuthorfinny
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2012
     
    Have a customers house in mind..much adapted mid wales watermill+cottage, very humble..in process of redesign around new heating system. How intrusive would the process be and how much time would it take?
  8.  
    Hi Finny.

    Not intrusive at all. As the study is completely desktop. The assessment will run until May 2013.

    I should point out that no reliance (commercial or otherwise) can be made on any results obtained as we are talking about undergraduates carrying out the work. This is purely a research exercise.

    Each student would also need to give consent for a copy of their work to be released, though none have refused in the past.
  9.  
    I also have the benefit of having had a blower door test done so I can give real ACH figures (assuming TAS can use these). Will be interesting to see how TAS deals with a water-to-air GSHP and if it can account for the hot-water preheat the de-superheater provides!

    Paul in Montreal.
  10.  
    Yes, ACH figures are user defined

    GSHP detail would be a problem. Tas deals with all renewables and for that matter all heating systems by way of a Part L compliance calculation. This unfortunately requires TRY weather files which the University doesn't subscribe to. This is how partly how EDSL /Bentley restrict unlicensed commercial use

    So the output would be much as it was with Tony's house. Ie, predictions of heating demand and peaks based on building geometry, construction elements and mass, set points, incidental gains, solar gain, infiltration, ventilation etc. Also a breakdown of all of the contributing factors is obtainable.

    Dynamic simulation is carried out with historic weather files rather than those explicitly specified (TRY) for Part L compliance
  11.  
    So TAS doesn't allow you to enter the actual fan powers, and such like, for the heating/ventilation systems? What sort of basement model does it have? (As my house has a semi-basement). Anyway, even if it can't model the GSHP properly, it should still be able to calculate the gains and loads etc.
    Posted By: Mike GeorgeDynamic simulation is carried out with historic weather files rather than those explicitly specified (TRY) for Part L compliance


    So weather data for my location should work (assuming it can be massaged into the right format).

    Paul in Montreal.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2012
     
    Can use mine, what would you need to know?
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: Paul in MontrealSo TAS doesn't allow you to enter the actual fan powers, and such like, for the heating/ventilation systems?


    Yes it does. Tas works by the user firstly drawing the building geometry. Then input of construction elements, gains, set points occupancy/heating/lighting/appliance schedules etc. The dynamic simulation is then carried out against a weather file, TRY or historic.

    Once the heating requirement is established, a macro is run which allows for the input of specific components of heating and or ventilation - though this requires TRY files (which we do not have) This part of the software can require complex input and requires Building Services experience (which I lack somewhat :)

    Posted By: Paul in Montreal What sort of basement model does it have? (As my house has a semi-basement).


    Basements are dealt with within the dynamic simulation by indicating that certain surfaces are in contact with the ground. The empirical annual mean temperature from 1m down on the weather file is taken to be the external temperature

    Posted By: Paul in Montreal Anyway, even if it can't model the GSHP properly, it should still be able to calculate the gains and loads etc.


    Again, possible as far as I know, though not without a TRY weather file.

    Posted By: Paul in MontrealSo weather data for my location should work (assuming it can be massaged into the right format).


    That one I don't know, but will find out
    • CommentAuthorkotpat
    • CommentTimeSep 28th 2012
     
    Hi

    Interesting as we live in a house that was one of the first biomass installed houses in Scotland which was a desastor due to poor insulation/ undersized boiler/ poor hydraulic and pipe sizes and the location of -17 deg C, house designed for -3 deg C.
    The development should have been a flat ship for all - but it has been forgotten.

    After a 5 years battle with the builder, biomass installer we won the case after having reports from all heating bodies and a Bre report from the Now manager of the Microgeneration and a Bsria report

    Sniped
    BRE
    bsria
    FIDHEE
    Under Floor Heating Association and many independent biomass engineers who offered there assistance,
    assitance fro teh Forestory commition and many others

    We have just moved back into our home after being out for 8+months while it was being rebuilt and a new biomass boiler and asssociated equipment installed.

    I would say that due to the fact that a Microgeneration registerd engineer did the heating report on the house and later found to be incorrect and then the facts proven by so many other engineers.

    The whole package would be a good reference for future engneers

    Cheers and all plans and reports available

    Cheers

    kotpat@btinternet.com
  15.  
    Thanks kotpat. I will drop you an email.
  16.  
    Great response so far all - thanks.

    Obviously I cannot use all of the buildings offered - though I'm now thinking of devising something where the students have a choice of building to model, rather than me specifying one - depends how complex the designs are I guess...

    Anyway, anyone who wants to send me electronic CAD files please do so - mikeDOTgeorge6ATbtinternetDOTcom
    • CommentAuthornikhoward
    • CommentTimeSep 29th 2012
     
    I have suitable house and files will email them on. Sounds interesting and nice to get a different point of view.
    • CommentAuthoran02ew
    • CommentTimeSep 29th 2012
     
    I’d love to see the result on my house. A 300 year old cottage with a new extension, the project is current and we are about half way through all the work, the cottage has had an EWI blanket extended into the ground and the new extension has had a self-design insulated foundation, my projected Uvalues for all elements are between 0.1 and 0.13 it would be really interesting to see if i have actual built to what i designed, or not?

    Our build is in Bridgwater, Somerset
  19.  
    Thanks chaps. If you send me the files I'll add them to the student list of choices
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeSep 29th 2012
     
    As I have not drawn up my house yet (been meaning to do it for years), what details do you need? and is a .dfx OK?
  21.  
    I would be very interested to have this done to my house. It's a British Iron and Steel Federation (BISF) house in Bath, over 30 000 were built so it would apply to a lot of houses, but may be difficult because of the construction type.
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeOct 1st 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaAs I have not drawn up my house yet (been meaning to do it for years), what details do you need? and is a .dfx OK?


    Do you know I've never used a dfx file. A long time since ive actually used AutoCAD as well , since Revit came along- worth ago - send it over!
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: atomicbisfI would be very interested to have this done to my house. It's a British Iron and Steel Federation (BISF) house in Bath, over 30 000 were built so it would apply to a lot of houses, but may be difficult because of the construction type.


    Hi, If you've got electronic files please send them to me. (email address above) I'm going to offer each student a choice of several buildings. so there's no guarantee which one {s} they will pick. I've actually only got two sets of electronic files to date so a fair chance they may go for yours.
  24.  
    More than happy to let you have ago with mine, not too late (but very nearly...) to pop in some temperature probes for comparison with real world...

    J
  25.  
    Yes please, like I said - only had two sent over so far - so the more I get the better.
  26.  
    Hi Mike,

    I'll have to send mine at the end of the week - they're currently on a laptop that I don't have access to. The hot2000 file was done with version 9.34 and I have a dxf file of some architectural drawings of the house (but this doesn't include all the windows, though the hot2000 file does). I would imagine the students would need to open the hot2000 file to get the details of the model out of it. The model has the "base" and "upgrade" cases to compare and the predicted energy consumption for the "upgrade" case is very close to actual measured consumption over the past couple of years.

    Paul in Montreal.
  27.  
    Just an update all.

    I will be trying to finalise this over the next week so anyone who hasn't already sent files and would like to please do so asap.

    Thanks again all for your interest
    • CommentAuthornikhoward
    • CommentTimeOct 17th 2012
     
    Posted By: Mike GeorgeMike George


    just sending to you now
  29.  
    Thanks Nik.

    Anyone still wanting to contribute, today's the last day as I will be offering the students a choice of drawings tomorrow.

    Thanks again all.
  30.  
    Mike:

    sorry for not getting anything to you. The drawings I have are only 2D and so it's not clear what the volumes would be and the hot2000 model may not be easy to import as I have quite a few "custom codes" for the building elements, plus the way I'd created the model was to have the original "unimproved" house as the "base case" and then to add in the various improvements to see how they played out. I don't know how to merge this all into a single model of the final house.

    Sorry,

    Paul in Montreal.

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