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Renewable Energy: Official C & F turbine AEPs

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      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 20th 2013
     
    There is also the cost of the planning consent, and legal costs, insurance, fighting with the neighbours about it and all that rubbish :wink:
    Then there is the chance that you have to stop it at certain times if it is too noisy or causes flicker. Then the maintenance.
    So as you say:
    Posted By: mbhit is very difficult to make any comparison without this information.
  2.  
    Planning for wind turbines around us is becoming a post code lottery. To different adjoining authorities have erected 25 x 1.5 MW and 12 x 2MW turbines yet the largest in my authority is 20 kw. How can this be fair when the prevailing wind goes past my hilltop on the way to these large wind farms.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2013
     
    Ted is about right with the £5,000 per kW capacity as a starting point.

    Planning just cost me the £350 application fee but I did the noise survey myself (which saved about £I500) but now they will only accept an application with a professional photomontage/landscape assessment ( I did my own with photo shop!) and then there's the Bat Survey or other ecological survey if you're putting it on anything but Improved agricultural land. Could save the noise and the bat money by siting the turbine more sympathetically but the landscape thing is a bugger.

    DNO is the real deal breaker - they have realised this is a nice little earner and are starting to charge silly money. I was astonished that they quoted me £8K for a 3 phase upgrade for 4 pole spans and a transformer but this was a give away price - I have heard of the same thing costing £25K !
    So grid connection is the first thing to cost, then find out the Planning situation, then turbine, then go see your neighbours. If you can't get them on board then I'd find something else to do with the money.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2013
     
    What size turbine was this for?

    I counted up the under 50 kW ones in Cornwall, it came to just over 1 MW installed capacity. Don't think it cost £5m to install a 1 MW one, so yes, there are better ways to get a return and generate more.
    • CommentAuthorbrathnach
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2013
     
    Hey guys,

    I've been trawling through the forums here looking for info on C&F 20 and the Gaia. Still not sure which way to bank. The issue with the MCS data not being made available was certainly a bit of a tell-tale in my book. I did do a search and came across the document below;

    http://www.wind-power-program.com/Library/Turbine%20test%20results/CF20%20UK%20MCS%20Certification%20Summary.pdf

    I'm just wondering are these the figures that many have said were not being released? I notice that this testing was undertook by a company called Intertek. I'm really curious as to how this certification process works. Are Intertek authorised by MCS to accredit products or have MCS also tested the turbines themselves and the data still not available.

    Not being able to get transparent impartial information is such a pain in the process of deciding which way to go.

    Thanks
  6.  
    The Farming Forum had a link to a web site that the C&F owners set up to log their monthly figures (not a C&F site), can't find it now since they've changed the forum but perhaps a google may find it. May even been linked on this forum somewhere.
    I have a Gaia and have (distant) neighbours with the C&F 20, I would go for a Gaia mainly because the "fixed" 56rpm blade speed is much quieter than a C&F going full tilt - having said that the C&F chaps seem to interfere via their telemetry so that if a strong wind is forecast they set the turbine to a high wind setting, so it never gets full tilt. That seems to upset a lot of owners!
    Feeling is that anything below 6m/s annual wind speed (at hub) then the Gaia is the only one worth looking at.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMar 11th 2013
     
    Just been watching the neighbour's C&F, it's been going so fast that you can't see the blades then stops dead and I mean just slams stop. Then it starts turning until it again (over speeds?) and slams stop. Now I'm no expert but this can't be right and will surely put enormous stress through the blade mounts. The other C&F is turning at a fairly constant speed 100rpm? Those C&F chaps in the back office must have gone for a coffee!
    At this 8.5m/s wind the Gaia is knocking out 11.9kW at a steady 56rpm, definitely more relaxing to live next to.
    • CommentAuthorbrathnach
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2013 edited
     
    Hey WIndy,

    Thank you very much for the feedback. I've seen this problem listed alright. Not so much the slamming stops but the apparent overshooting pitch control causing significant RPM fluctuations.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyAZeqw5rd4

    Despite all my research, it is still proving a difficult decision making process. The windspeed at hub at my site is 6.5m/s so going by the verified literature the C&F would (on paper) produce more per annum. I would believe the C&F is more visually pleasing when compared to the Gaia but have never seen the two side by side either so my opinion may not be qualified really. Also the lower cut-in speed of the C&F would trumph the Gaia. Couple of videos on youtube showing that, although its not like much energy is being produced at these low windspeeds either.

    In favour of the Gaia, I have a three phase connection (can cut out the inverters (read less things to break down)), the gaia certainly has more of a proven track record and I do like the slower more constant blade RPM. Also if I recall correctly from my last check.. the Gaia would be a cheaper install. Also I've come across in a few places that C&F customer service was lacking which is a nightmare situation with a ~100,000 euro installation. Others have stated that the warranty was not worth the paper it was written on and customers were charged for repairs.

    Sorry I'm just thinking out loud here in this post. I'm in Ireland so the margins are alot tighter due to there being no similar payments such as the FIT in UK. I'd like to go with the C&F but my play it safe, shrewd cap says go Gaia.

    Out of interest Windy Lamb, have you and your neighbour compared production figures over a period? Or has he given you any insights to his C&F experience? It would make quite interesting information for me as they are the two machines I'm plucking straws over. Also have you ever had any problems with the Gaia throwing out the tip brakes during a power outage and on reconnection attempting to spin up the blade despite the brakes being deployed? It's probably the only issue I've come across relating to the Gaia.

    thanks

    Jim
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2013
     
    Brathnach - In 2 years I've never had a tip out even having had a few power outages and that other thing you mentioned can be avoided by turning the turbine off until you put the tips back. Never had any down time or lost production but did have an issue with a rotor over speed error - in light winds (less than 2m/s) the blades free wheel then if the wind increases the generator cuts in. My problem was that the generator didn't cut in quick enough so the computer braked the blades, in fear of an over speed rather than an actual over speed. Never lost any production because it only happened in very light wind but was a real pain to find the cause - some control switch which took about 2 minutes to replace (once they knew what to replace). The standard Gaia 1 year warrantee is a bit naff so I bought a 5 year one which covers everything including crane costs. My actual average wind speed is 4.5m/s although all the data bases showed 6.5m/s, the Gaia has produced 27,000 kwhrs/yr at those speeds so I'm happy enough.

    As for my neighbour's production, his C&Fs have only been working about 6 weeks (they were up for a few weeks before that but took a while for them to be connected). So I don't know.

    I would say that the installer is vital so if you go for a Gaia make sure they know what they are doing. My other neighbour brought 2 Gaias which weren't put up straight so the crane had to come back with a concrete pecker!
  10.  
    If you want to compare you can stand in my field and watch 4 gaia's and 2 cf's. Personally I would scrap the lot and put up a decent size turbine as the village is now looking cluttered and still only generates one third of a single 250 kw turbine.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2013
     
    renewablejohn - Sounds like your field is right next to me!!!
    I understand your point but if I could afford a 250kW turbine I wouldn't need to put up any turbine!
    Oh and there's the matter of planning - the planning dept asked if I could put up 2 x 6kW Evances rather than 1 Gaia, I declined. Seems they'd rather see the place cluttered with lots of small ones rather than one big one.
    I would, of course, be willing to scrap the turbine if you paid me the equivalent 20 year income and I'm sure all the other turbine owners would agree to that as well! Probably cheaper than buying enough land for an unmolested view to the horizon.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 12th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: windy lambI would, of course, be willing to scrap the turbine if you paid me the equivalent 20 year income and I'm sure all the other turbine owners would agree to that as well!
    Mentioned it somewhere, I looked at the installed capacity of all the sub 50 kW turbines in Cornwall, they amounted to 1090 kW installed capacity (I think there was about 60). If they had all got together they could have got a 1 MW one, not so good when it fails, but probably make up for it when it is working.
    I like turbines, the bigger the better, there is a large radio mast with lights on it just outside of Redruth, they could take that down and pop a decent Enercon E-128 up there. :wink:
  13.  
    Windy

    I just dont get why farmers in the UK do not have the co-op mentality. The cost of the 4 Gaia's and 2 CF's would easily pay for the single 250 kw turbine and produce 3 times the electric so each farmer could be earning 3 times as much.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 13th 2013
     
    Something we agree on there John :bigsmile:

    Co-Ops are not really a UK thing in anything, except time-share apartments in overdeveloped Spain.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMar 13th 2013
     
    Yes, it would be sensible but unfortunately our culture does not seem to have the co-op mentality, more of mistrust and bickering. If farmers could get together the first thing they should do is tell the supermarkets to eff off, then they'd get paid the true cost of food production and wouldn't need to put up a turbine to farm the FIT!
    Seems ridiculous that the biggest earner on our farm is the Gaia when 20 years ago the sheep supported 3 families.
    • CommentAuthoralexsmb
    • CommentTimeApr 17th 2013
     
    Windy Lamb - the C&F group I set up is at www.cfturbinegroup.org.uk. If you go to the Stats tab you'll see the figures for a range of locations for the CF11, CF15 and CF20.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2013
     
    Thanks alexmb, useful for everyone.

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