Green Building Forum - Practical/ effective solution? Tue, 19 Dec 2023 04:02:40 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304395#Comment_304395 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304395#Comment_304395 Sat, 25 Nov 2023 12:56:37 +0000 Artiglio
In my never ending project , i’ve got to a bit of a conundrum, the building is an 1800’s 3 bay threshing barn, previously much messed with, slowly working toward converting it to a modernish home. All gone pretty well so far, I’ve now got to what will be the lounge, this incorporates 2 dwarf walls that project about 2m into the room perpendicular to the external walls on which parts of the timber frame sit. Whilst I’ve not gone overboard with the insulation on the external walls ( 60mm wood fibre) these dwarf walls need to be left as they are, but obviously represent huge thermal bridges from both the external wall and ground/foundations.
They soon discolour with condensation when it is cold outside, my plan is to have a inlet from the mvhr in the ceiling adjacent to each of them and an extract on the opposite side of the room ( which is 8m x 5m ), along with a radiator next to each of them, ( room has 4 rads, and designed to be sufficient for the room with flow rates of 50 degrees with external temps of 0) eventually there’ll be a wood stove to deal with the really cold days or the boiler will just get turned up via the weather comp on the boiler.
In my head I’m seeing a continual flow fresh air drawing any condensation that may form away from the walls , but ideally the input of generally drier external air and the heat from the radiators ( keeping the walls above dew point ) will mean humidity and temps are such that no problem has a chance to arise.

Whilst a long way from an ideal construction - planning restrictions , listed building consent and budget constraints , would this be seen as a sensible approach?]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304426#Comment_304426 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304426#Comment_304426 Thu, 30 Nov 2023 22:35:51 +0000 Jeff B Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304429#Comment_304429 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304429#Comment_304429 Fri, 01 Dec 2023 08:47:46 +0000 fostertom Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304430#Comment_304430 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304430#Comment_304430 Fri, 01 Dec 2023 08:54:21 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary You don't say why the dwarf walls need to be left as they are. Is it a structural issue supporting part of the timber frame, in which case can another support system be used (talk to as SE) or is it a listed building issue?

If they can't be removed then I would treat them the same as the external walls of which they are a part, i.e. 60mm wood fibre.]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304446#Comment_304446 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304446#Comment_304446 Fri, 01 Dec 2023 23:36:43 +0000 Jeff B Posted By: fostertomI think they're freestanding er ... dwarf walls, running into the room perp to the external wall, and inboard parts of the timber structural frame are built off the top of them - the dwarf walls are to keep the timber well above floor level. Presumably this matches the construction of the external walls?

Oh,ok. It's just that I've never come across the term dwarf wall other than in connection with conservatories or dormer bungalows. If I understand the current context then, I would describe them as piers rather than dwarf walls?]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304448#Comment_304448 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304448#Comment_304448 Sat, 02 Dec 2023 08:09:32 +0000 fostertom Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304449#Comment_304449 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304449#Comment_304449 Sat, 02 Dec 2023 10:44:31 +0000 Artiglio They need to be retained as they are due to the listing. The external barn walls are a mix of brick and flint in lime mortar the “dwarf” walls are brick.
With the current cold snap, there is very obvious condensation forming on the bottom corner of one of these walls , ( the other adjoins an exterior wall that has a raised ground level outside this has’nt shown any obvious signs yet) but the room has recently been plastered and so the humidity levels are high at the moment.]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304451#Comment_304451 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304451#Comment_304451 Sat, 02 Dec 2023 13:36:56 +0000 philedge Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304454#Comment_304454 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304454#Comment_304454 Sat, 02 Dec 2023 16:50:27 +0000 djh Posted By: philedgeCould you put insulated and air tightish removeable covers over them that you can take off if needed?That sounds like a good idea to me. They would need to be properly vapour tight rather than 'air tightish' though, I think. So some kind of vapour membrane and whatever is necessary to protect it from damage, plus tape or compression gaskets or whatever at all the edges.]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304455#Comment_304455 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304455#Comment_304455 Sat, 02 Dec 2023 19:16:12 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary Posted By: ArtiglioWhat i’ve described as dwarf walls are 4 foot high walls projecting 6 feet into the interior perpendicular to the external wall. , as Fostertom describes they support parts of the timber frame , they also form the divisions for the 3 bays.
They need to be retained as they are due to the listing.
If they need to be retained due to the listing then why don't you talk to the listed building people (is it the CO ?) to see if you can

Posted By: Peter_in_Hungarytreat them the same as the external walls of which they are a part, i.e. 60mm wood fibre.
]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304492#Comment_304492 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304492#Comment_304492 Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:46:01 +0000 Artiglio
Had a quick word with the structural engineer and as far as he’s concerned it’s asking for lots of issues decoupling the dwarf wall from the external wall.
Asking the conservation officer anything illicits the knee jerk “ no” to any enquiry that is’nt fully detailed and justified , plus whatever is done changes the appearance that has already been agreed upon.
They have a mix of finishes ( bare brick, cement render , lime render.)
Removing the renders i could probably add a max of 40mm of woodfibre, without making them look too odd.]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304495#Comment_304495 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304495#Comment_304495 Tue, 05 Dec 2023 18:34:28 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304501#Comment_304501 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304501#Comment_304501 Wed, 06 Dec 2023 10:43:37 +0000 fostertom Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304507#Comment_304507 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304507#Comment_304507 Wed, 06 Dec 2023 12:29:52 +0000 Jeff B Posted By: ArtiglioCheers gents

Had a quick word with the structural engineer and as far as he’s concerned it’s asking for lots of issues decoupling the dwarf wall from the external wall.
Asking the conservation officer anything illicits the knee jerk “ no” to any enquiry that is’nt fully detailed and justified , plus whatever is done changes the appearance that has already been agreed upon.
They have a mix of finishes ( bare brick, cement render , lime render.)
Removing the renders i could probably add a max of 40mm of woodfibre, without making them look too odd.

Having watched many episodes of Grand Designs for example, I never fail to be astonished by the sort of stuff that these conservation officials come up with. In this case we are talking about internal walls that I presume by definition are not visible from outside so what possible difference can it make if they are covered with insulation and then rendered to blend in with whatever the rest of the walls are rendered with? Indeed the OP says he has already insulated the exterior walls, so that presumably that was allowable, so what's so special about these piers/dwarf walls? Crazy!]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304509#Comment_304509 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304509#Comment_304509 Wed, 06 Dec 2023 13:44:50 +0000 Artiglio I had two roof lights that were as rotten as a pear , badly built initially and made worse by poor repairs over the years, these were built “on the rafter” so were above the roofline, i proposed to replace these with conservation rooflights fitted on the same basis, “no” they needed to be fitted flush to the roofline “in the rafter”.
The changes made in the 80’s have become pretty obvious as i’ve worked through the building. But I was allowed to add extra windows and doors and unify others that were later additions.
The iwi was a battle in itself and needed a reference to historic england guidance along with pointing out that such buildings have little future unless they can be made reasonably efficient to heat. All this for what is a very basic grade 2, which was most likely listed for no other reason than to stop it being demolished and redeveloped.

The idea of using an insulating render/plaster , might well be the way forward, that i could do and no one would really be any the wiser ( especially give these walls and the sections of frame on them were boxed in and hidden during the works in the 80’s).

The whole area of listed building legislation and the “value” of many of buildings that have a listing is well overdue review , in order to properly protect the truly important buildings and make allow the rest to be suitable for modern day living whilst retaining their character.

All this from a council that has declared a “climate emergency” and pledged to put the environment at the centre of all it does , then allowed a grade 2 to be converted with no listed building consent or planning permission ( this was applied for retrospectively 6 months after things started) into a homeless hostel that the council then contracted for 3 years to provide services to the council ( very cosy way of doing things). The boiler there is never off.

However the councils duties regarding listed buildings is a discretionary rather than statutory duty, so plenty of wiggle room for them.]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304513#Comment_304513 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304513#Comment_304513 Wed, 06 Dec 2023 15:14:33 +0000 fostertom Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304514#Comment_304514 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304514#Comment_304514 Wed, 06 Dec 2023 16:11:34 +0000 Artiglio I was involved in a heritage grant scheme, each participant had to engage an approved architect who was meant to oversee what went on, the things they wanted to let the contractor get away with were beyond belief and made a complete mockery of the £3500 pound specification i’d paid for and against which contractors tendered. When i insisted on the contractor doing what they’d priced to do ( rather than the bodges they wanted to) the contractor walked off after i’d paid the inflated monthly valuation the architect had agreed to, ( his argumemt was that we needed to make sure the contractor earnt enough to cover his costs, which at times were greater than the work done)
The architect was more interestedin keeping the council and contractor happy than , me, the customer. The only way the job could be finished within budget was to allow me to take the works over. At the end it was privately stated by the then CO that my building was the best finished in the scheme, but couldn’t be lauded as such as it was more convenient to publicise one of the others ( which has since had to be repainted as the prep work originally done was appalling).
I realise one swallow doesn’t make a summer, but my experiences have not been overly positive.]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304520#Comment_304520 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304520#Comment_304520 Wed, 06 Dec 2023 18:39:04 +0000 Jeff B
*For this reason I would never take on any project involving listed buildings! However I am full of admiration for those who do though.]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304521#Comment_304521 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304521#Comment_304521 Wed, 06 Dec 2023 19:30:53 +0000 fostertom
Still, it's portrait of a system that's being starved to death, professionalism being crushed out of it. Could that be deliberate? My time in Bath in the 80s couldn't have been more different - well resourced, top rate experienced old-building lovers in the Planning Office, to confer with as peers to find creative and excellent solutions. The huge, succesful grant-aided programme to bring Bath's density of coal-smoke-acid blackened Listed Buildings back from the brink of decomposition and developer rapacity, to its enduring golden (mostly) shining state, with upgrade of 1,000s of near-slum flats along the way, was thanks to the City Council as much as anything, as well as government finance and a large highly skilled local building industry. All gone.

With bad stories like that, do we want to angrily dismantle the beauracracy completely, or would we prefer well resourced, professional, effective control? We know it was possible. Let's understand who destroyed it, and not scapegoat the front-line Officers. The answer applies to Building Regs as well. And to insulating the housing stock - the huge 70s/80s Housing Improvement programme, even the Natural Gas Conversion programme show it's eminently possible.]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304522#Comment_304522 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304522#Comment_304522 Wed, 06 Dec 2023 19:50:18 +0000 Artiglio The listed building regs were devised in a time that was very different , as s you say, councils had knowledgeable practical officers, they had discretion and leeway, didn’t have to charge for advice ( my council wants a preapplication fee which is 3 times the actual application fee which you also have to pay), owners of listed buildings used to get wider grant access and vat rebates.
That times change is not a problem, but the whole system needs to move in step. My council in everything it does is more concerned with avoiding liability at any level.
You refer to similar issues in building control, but councils reduced their own revenues by largely choosing not to enter the insurance backed guarantee market and by doing so lost just about any new build work they may have had
,it also meant that many of the councils experienced BC officers moved into the private sector.
My councils BC fees are way higher than those of the private companies.
Fee structures may well be in need of revision , but if my council were allowed to calculate their own “full cost recovery” they would never get any work. In my councils case they’d be better off ensuring they don’t waste the millions they do in other areas ( but again that deviates from the core of the discussion).
Quite how you’d ever get things back on an even keel , i’ve no idea.]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304523#Comment_304523 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304523#Comment_304523 Wed, 06 Dec 2023 22:17:59 +0000 fostertom Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304530#Comment_304530 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304530#Comment_304530 Fri, 08 Dec 2023 10:03:22 +0000 Artiglio
However I doubt our viewpoints on such things would ever come close ,as it’s veered so far from anything to do with energy efficency or decent buildings , it’s not a subject for discussion on this forum.]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304532#Comment_304532 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304532#Comment_304532 Fri, 08 Dec 2023 11:39:35 +0000 fostertom
If "our viewpoints on such things would [n]ever come close", that's because I see the problem as deliberately created, in the name of 'removal of red tape' (which Grenfell if nothing else has shown to be a big mistake) and so 'we' could un-create; while you see it just as "times change", before which you seem happy to remain inert or powerless, or to call for more of the same.]]> Practical/ effective solution? http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304535#Comment_304535 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=18037&Focus=304535#Comment_304535 Fri, 08 Dec 2023 12:47:52 +0000 Artiglio The fire service had a big hand in this as they’d have been the certificating authority for years and had no chance of dealing with the blaze effectively on the night given the buildings failings.
But the focus was on the cladding and it’s associated failings. Was this to deflect attention from the failings of the public sector over the years.
Improving the quality of new builds and existing housing stock is as we all know perfectly possible, but to achieve the standard required needs considerable effort and care, which in a world fixated on cost and the final price to the consumer is never going to work in a relatively low wage/skill economy that wants the best currently available.

Just as in my case, applying through the whole listed building system for a change to such a small part of the building can on the whim of the way a council chooses to apply the legislation and the views of an individul officer become a real headache and incur costs totally disproportionate to what is being considered.

On which point, the joiner has come up with an alternate solution, the wall in question will be partly covered by fitted cupboards, if the design of the units are altered , the section of wall covered by these can have insulation applied and sealed. This will deal with the coldest section of the wall where the condensation forms, the rest of the wall can be left as is and monitored to see how the room performs once it’s finished and lived in. At worst there’ll be a need to address any problems later.]]>