Rex,

AFAIK, copper cable is going to disappear in the not too distant future. I have VOIP and it has proven cheaper calling Switzerland on it than with the BT landline though I could not say about Japan.

Posted By: WillInAberdeenWe make all those calls for free on WhatsApp or Zoom, does that work for you? Can choose video or audio-only.

I use skype for chats to my relatives in Blighty.

Posted By: Jonticopper cable is going to disappear in the not too distant future

Not the copper, but its use for old fashioned trad 'landline' - in 2025. After that it'll be all-VOIP.

Posted By: RexThe bigger issue is that to use anything that needs the computer, means that the receiving computer has to be on or one has to make a time for the call.

Whatsapp is a (smart) phone based system and skype can also be on a phone which as it is always on will ring with an incoming call.

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryWhatsapp is a (smart) phone based

Pretty sure Rex still uses a Nokia 9110

This of course will stop working when they switch off 2G shortly (IIRC). - Actually 2033

My “landline” number is actually on a VoIP service (https://www.sipgatebasic.co.uk/) which gives me a normal local-area [¹] number which I use either from my computer or from old-fashioned telephones using an ATA (analog telephone adapter). It'd also be possible to use a dedicated VoIP telephone which makes some sense in many businesses but possibly not domestically.

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: Rex</cite>My wife is Japanese and frequently makes calls 'home.' At the moment, we use one of the various CPS (carrier pre-selection) numbers and the calls only cost 3p per minute.</blockquote>You can do better than that: Sipgate's rate for calls to Japanese landlines is 1.9 p/min and 9.9 p/min to Japanese mobiles.

<blockquote>The bigger issue is that to use anything that needs the computer, means that the receiving computer has to be on or one has to make a time for the call.</blockquote>Not necessarily, VoIP providers like Sipgate and Skype allow calls from a computer to normal phones.

[¹] Could have had any area code in the country but chose to have the one covering the area where I'm renting and where I'm building.

Skype etc also allow free internet calls to anywhere in the world, direct to the recipient's smartphone handset, over the recipient's home internet connection. The forthcoming change is that all 'landline' call services will be delivered in the same way, they will just be dressed up to look like they used to, with a separate handset etc.

There is no longer any reason or justification for international calls to be charged any differently than local calls, IE free. They are just internet traffic, you don't expect to pay extra for 'international' emails or 'long distance' web pages. You already paid for these when you paid for an internet connection.

The only reason why companies still have the nerve to charge for international calls, is that many people still seem surprisingly willing to pay up!

Edit: we ditched our landline subscription a few years ago as we realised we don't need it and the broadband was hopelessly slow for the price. We haven't missed it at all. Now we just use the bundled call time on our mobiles, or WhatsApp etc for free calls over an unlimited 4G internet connection which is much cheaper than 'line rental'. If there were a faster internet connection available such as FTTP, we'd pay for that. If there is a power cut we can still use mobiles, charged if necessary from the car's battery.

Rex,

you can usually get an adapter that allows the continued use of old phones

I received this from a local biz, who are alarmed:

"Having done some research, we cannot identify a viable plan for our telephone needs when the big switch-off happens in 2025 (for more details, see https://business.bt.com/insights/digital-transformation/uk-pstn-switch-off/).
Are we the only ones, or are there others who will have the same problem?

Do you currently have a landline system with an ‘internal exchange’ where you can put calls through to other extensions and perhaps have several different phone numbers within the same system?
• Landlines will stop working in 2025;
• Mobile signal (if you have it) will only work with a single number mobile;
• A VoIP solution such as 3CX using wireless broadband (like Cloud Wireless, if you can get it) gives really poor quality audio for voice – we have trialled it extensively and it won’t be anywhere near good enough for our needs; VoIP vendors do not recommend VoIP over wireless broadband services.
Basically we will have to get a physical fibre broadband cable to Sheldon before the switch off.
• The Teign Valley is not even on the OpenReach map for the 2026 fibre rollout – we are in a ‘not spot’ and can’t currently see this is going to arrive in time for a community solution (see see https://www.openreach.com/fibre-broadband/where-when-building-ultrafast-full-fibre-broadband)
o We are however aware that fibre is present in some areas of/around Christow, but full details remain unclear.
• Other companies are building other networks, but none approached so far have indicated any plans to be active in our area.
• We have a quote for £20,000+ to get fibre to Sheldon (a) it is subject to survey and (b) we can’t share it with anyone else. Just FYI that cost covers a 3 year contract.
So if you have a telephone system similar to ours, how do you think you will solve the problem for your organisation?
Do you have different critical services to those we’ve identified that you can foresee being severely impacted or stopped altogether?

We are probably about to go with the £20K contract given that this is a business-critical issue and some solutions can take a couple of years to implement.
But we don’t want to go it alone if there are others in need of a solution and there is potentially one we could share.
We are likely to sign to pursue the £20K contract at the end of February unless something unexpected turns up sooner than that.

We have raised these concerns to our district councillor, and also at county council and MP level."

Thanks Will - I've passed that on, also drawing attention to Starlink (much as I disapprove of its inescapble EMF-drench)

I'm certainly not an expert either!

AiUI the common VoIP protocols require either an 0.07 or 0.09 Mb/s internet capacity. We were previously on a 3-mile copper line which delivered around 1Mb/s, so fine for VoIP (but useless for anything else!).

BT have a Universal Service Obligation to provide everyone at least 10MB/s, which they might do using 4G in rural areas, other 4G providers are cheaper. Fixed home installations with rooftop antennas can pick up a 4G signal even where smartphones can't find one. I suppose people could access their VOIP line that way, if the copper line is inadequate.

Posted By: WillInAberdeenI'm certainly not an expert either!

AiUI the common VoIP protocols require either an 0.07 or 0.09 Mb/s internet capacity. We were previously on a 3-mile copper line which delivered around 1Mb/s, so fine for VoIP (but useless for anything else!).

BT have a Universal Service Obligation to provide everyone at least 10MB/s, which they might do using 4G in rural areas, other 4G providers are cheaper. Fixed home installations with rooftop antennas can pick up a 4G signal even where smartphones can't find one. I suppose people could access their VOIP line that way, if the copper line is inadequate.

I am/was at the end of a 2mile copper line and was lucky to get 0.5MB/s. The problem is that when you were getting your 1MB that would have been copper line all the way. But as of 2025 the copper to the cabinet will be switched off and copper is only compatible with fibre over a much shorter distance compared to copper all the way. My understanding is 2 miles basically means no broadband and no VOIP capabilities.

BT have a Universal Service Obligation but the Scottish Government has defined this as connection to cabinet so they could hit their own target (which they have missed the first part of). I am now on a wireless network which gives me a minimum of 60MB/s for under £35 per month with no contract. If I go away for 3 months I can stop the service and start it again when I get back. Wouldn't touch BT with a barge pole these days.

Posted By: RexI don't mind having VOiP (if it works) but the various call packages are more expensive than I am currently paying. I have Anytime with John Lewis for around £6 per month and with that, can call oversea with 18866 and the month bill is around £3 per month.

You think you're confused, so am I by what you've written

You can use 18866 with any phone provider as far as I know, so I don't know why you make a connection to JL? We use one of its sister products - 18185 - which seems to be slightly cheaper for us.

The 18866 web site says that BT block the carrier number

I believe that may be true although I have no direct experience. You can always use the freephone access number instead I think, though the tariff might be slightly different. (it seems strange that BT can block access to a competitor????)

There's an article at https://uk.pcmag.com/internet-telephony-voip/132588/finally-ditch-that-landline-the-best-voip-home-phone-services?p=1 that lists some providers although there are others such as sipgate that have already been mentioned.

"You can use 18866 with any phone provider as far as I know"

You may be right but as I understand it, one can only use the 18866 cheap rates from a registered phone. It makes sense because otherwise, who would 18866 invoice?


"We pay £14.60 /month for 4G internet and that includes unlimited calls, emails, web pages, iPlayer and all other kinds of internet traffic. "

I am paying more than that, but it is landline with John Lewis Broadband, who get it from Plusnet who are part of BT. What would I do to get 4g and from whom?

I contacted 18866 with a technical request and this was their reply:

"You would not need to use Carrier Preselection, nor would you need any VoIP service from your FTTP provider (unless you wished to) you would just require some VoIP device to connect to our service, you could then make all your National & International calls via ourselves. However I must point out that we do not support short code dialling, so no 101, 111 nor 999 service, however if you have a mobile these services are usually provided on their network."

May be it is age related but I still don't understand. If I keep my copper land line but take FTTP for the internet, I know where I stand but will have to pay extra just to keep the landline.

But if I accept FTTP with VoIP, still not sure about the cost of international phone calls via 18866 (if it is even possible?)