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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2014 edited
     
    In another thread:

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=12791&page=1#Comment_213286

    FosterTom wrote: “There must be a crossover, when with increasing insolation ST begins to produce 'something' while PV produces more, and at some point they equalise even for same collector area, before ST races away to produce much more for same collector area. Any 'feel' of where that equalisation point lies?”

    This is my page with the closest relevant results: http://edavies.me.uk/2012/01/solar-per-area/ The bottom graph is slightly less horrible to look at.

    Taking just about producing heat at 25 °C above ambient the relevant lines are the <s>darker blue</s> green for flat plate and light blue/cyan for evacuated tube. PV is pretty much temperature independent so its single muddy-brown line is the one which applies.

    Going on rough insolation read off the graph:

    [Edit 2014-11-18: corrected to use the appropriate line for flat plates. More detailed and output-temperature-specific graph added. Oops.]

    < 40 W/m²: nothing works.
    40 to 75 W/m² the PV produces a trickle of output.
    75 to 95 W/m² the PV produces a bit more and the ETs begin to produce a bit, but less than the PV.
    95 to 125 W/m² the ETs produce steadily more than the PV.
    125 to 145 W/m² the ETs then PV are still winning but the flat plates are beginning to produce.
    145 to 185 W/m² the order is now ETs, FP, PV.
    > 185 W/m² the order is FP, ET, PV.

    Looked at like that it seems that the region where PV wins is very narrow. There are a few things to bear in mind:

    1) That's an important and common region at the times of year when the performance of space heating is critical; any old system will do in the summer but if you want to extend well into the heating season then you need to tune things more carefully.

    2) This is based on area. Solar thermal is more than twice as expensive per m² compared to PV. When you go on price the break points are different (http://www.edavies.me.uk/2012/01/pv-et-flat/).

    3) This is about producing relatively low temperature outputs for space heating. Solar thermal is penalised significantly compared to PV when higher temperatures for DHW are required.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2014
     
    Following a mention on another forum I'd like to expand on that last point, 3, above by giving the equivalent numbers for the case where the output temperature is better suited to DHW, say 45 °C above ambient.

    < 40 W/m²: nothing works.
    40 to 145 W/m²: PV produces a trickle of output, solar thermal doesn't.
    145 to 195 W/m²: ET is beginning to produce but PV still wins.
    195 to 235 W/m²: ET pulls ahead of PV, FP still producing nothing.
    235 to 285 W/m²: FP begins to produce a bit.
    285 to 340 W/m²: FP bets PV but not ET.
    > 340 W/m²: Order is FP, ET, PV.

    But remember, this is for a fixed area where the solar thermal will be noticeably more expensive. On price solar thermal can beat PV at high insolation but not by much. At low insolation PV wins on price, often by effectively an infinite amount when it produces but the solar thermal doesn't.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2014
     
    PV does not need risky heat dump systems in the summer when sized for 9 months usage. The excess summer output of PV can also be sold, unlike thermal systems.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2014
     
    Valuable stuff Ed - thanks a lot. You write it really clearly.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2014
     
    Yes, the flexibility of use of PV output is a big point in its favour, as is its robustness.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2014
     
    In terms of price, do you factor in not just the panels themselves, but associated equipment (tanks, pumps inverters, immersion coils etc)?

    Really interesting. I have some ETs that I intend to use for low level heating in winter/shoulder and DHW at peak.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: ringiThe excess summer output of PV can also be sold, unlike thermal systems.
    That does affect any business case for one or the other.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2014
     
    The best case I for thermal solar these day is when it saves having to run a log boiler in the summer. In that case the tank etc is already needed for the log boiler.

    Unless you have a campsite when most hot water is needed in the summer...
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2014
     
    Oddly enough I bath more in the summer, party because of my job, and partly because I sunbath before work. Not unusual to have 2 or 3 showers a day in the summer.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: borpinIn terms of price, do you factor in not just the panels themselves, but associated equipment (tanks, pumps inverters, immersion coils etc)?
    No, those various pages are just panel prices. I haven't looked into it too much but I think the overall prices should scale in close-enough proportion to not change the conclusion much.
    • CommentAuthorbillt
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2014 edited
     
    And some real world graphs.

    120 tube evacuated tube solar thermal, 3.8kW PV with SB3800 inverter.

    Daily output from 2013 in WHr/sq.m of gross panel area, ordered by PV output, first for every day of the year.
    • CommentAuthorbillt
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2014
     
    And for the lowest 165 days. (Ignore the y axis scale, it should be Whr/sq.m.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2014
     
    Thanks billt - very interesting. Nice way of showing it - days ordered by PV output. Took me a few minutes to read what you actually wrote properly while wondering if it was cumulative output or something.

    The blue “poly” line, that's a polynomial fit to the solar thermal, is it?

    Any idea of the temperatures your solar thermal was harvesting at?

    In general, quite encouraging as it at least confirms the idea that PV wins on the rubbish days, solar thermal on the better days.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 18th 2014
     
    This thread has been about Wh/m². Again, if you want Wh/£ billt's graphs could be tweaked a bit.

    Say they're Navitron 20x47 tube panels. They have an area of 2.49 m² and cost £320+VAT so that's £128/m². (58 mm tubes would be £117/m² on that basis.)

    PV panels at £0.60/W and 14% efficiency would have a cost of £84/m².

    So, to compare on the basis of equal cost rather than equal area billt's PV curve needs to be moved up about half as much again. It's difficult to judge but it looks like PV then beats solar thermal on about the worst 220 to 240 days of the year.
    • CommentAuthorDave_07968
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2014
     
    Is there anything between the two in terms of installation and maintenance costs though?

    I've been toying with the idea of a DIY solar thermal rig whereas I'd fear it would be more difficult to do PV without paying through the nose on installation.

    As for ongoing costs, in the one case you've got the inverter etc. but I suppose there's a pump and so on for thermal (and of course, the fat subsidy)
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeNov 20th 2014
     
    installation of thermal depends so much on the layout of the building and pipe runs.

    One on going cost for thermal that is often forgot is having the loses from a larger DHW tank, this can evan make the best combi boilers use less gas for hot water then a system boiler with a solar thermal system.
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