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Housing - New Build: Steel roof options

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    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014
     
    Trying to make a reasonably final decision on roof cladding for my new build.

    North and south facing roofs, each about 18 m east/west and 8 m eaves to ridge. South roof will have PV, solar thermal and a row of Velux windows. Roof is quite steeply sloped: 60°. Underneath is timber I-beams with a, presumably, OSB sarking layer on top. That'd, also presumably, have a non-tenting membrane, counter-battens and battens on it.

    Major considerations are wanting a smooth surface for rainwater harvesting and, as far as possible, DIYable for an inexperienced builder. There's the option of some outside help on a casual basis but always the possibility of logistical problems with weather windows, etc.

    Up until now I've been assuming profiled steel with the thought in the back of my mind that something like Decra might be easier to self install. Just having a last-minute rethink considering the problems of largish steel sheets and also issues of flashing above Velux windows and stuff.

    Looking specifically at Decra it seems quite expensive (a good few extra £1000s which I can think of better uses for) and also seems to most be stone coated.

    Any cheap options which might be more wieldy and easier to flash than profiled steel?
    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014
     
    I've been looking at Tata Colorcoat Urban for reroofing, though currently on the back burner due to lack of finance. Figures I've seen ranged from £25/m^2 + VAT for just the materials to £50 - £70/m^2 fitted. I have been informed they run a monthly course for DIYers in North Wales.

    Most people seem to go for Decra or similar for reroofing, though personally I see no reason to ape tiles in steel and prefer the fact that the Tata product is unashamed about being an industrial material.

    Ed
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014
     
    Thanks Ed,

    Yes, I had looked at Tata quite a while ago, now you mention it. Similar sort of price to Decra, mid £20s /m². Profile steel seems to be under £10/m² (or maybe a bit over with VAT). With some 288 m² (plus a bit on the north side of the greenhouse) and a tight budget it's not the sort of difference I'd take lightly.

    Agree on the looks; I don't like materials pretending to be something else.

    Ed.
    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Ed Davies</cite>Thanks Ed,

    Yes, I had looked at Tata quite a while ago, now you mention it. Similar sort of price to Decra, mid £20s /m². Profile steel seems to be under £10/m² (or maybe a bit over with VAT). With some 288 m² (plus a bit on the north side of the greenhouse) and a tight budget it's not the sort of difference I'd take lightly.

    Agree on the looks; I don't like materials pretending to be something else.

    Ed.</blockquote>

    Ouch, I didn't notice the area involved! Makes our approx 55 m² seem manageable. I've never seen profiled steel on a house in this country, I presume it would be allowed? Mind you I'd never seen profiled asbestos on a house either till I saw this!

    Out of interest, was that price just for the steel itself? I would be interested as I need to know how much we need to save up as our asbestos is starting to leak :(

    Ed
    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesThanks Ed,

    Yes, I had looked at Tata quite a while ago, now you mention it. Similar sort of price to Decra, mid £20s /m². Profile steel seems to be under £10/m² (or maybe a bit over with VAT). With some 288 m² (plus a bit on the north side of the greenhouse) and a tight budget it's not the sort of difference I'd take lightly.

    Agree on the looks; I don't like materials pretending to be something else.

    Ed.


    Ouch, I didn't notice the area involved! Makes our approx 55 m² seem manageable. I've never seen profiled steel on a house in this country, I presume it would be allowed? Mind you I'd never seen profiled asbestos on a house either till I saw this!

    Out of interest, was that price just for the steel itself? I would be interested as I need to know how much we need to save up as our asbestos is starting to leak :(

    Ed
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesJust having a last-minute rethink considering the problems of largish steel sheets and also issues of flashing above Velux windows and stuff.

    My neighbour rebuilt their roof completely (new timbers & everything) about 3 years ago. The old roof was black painted "wriggly tin". For the new roof they used the green square profile sheeting you often see crofters' barns made of and they fitted a couple of Velux's. So far as I'm aware they've not had any problems with the flashing. A couple of years ago they fitted solar thermal (30 x ET) to the roof, again no issues so far as I'm aware.

    Your pitch is considerably steeper.

    I can ask about brand of sheeting & "user feedback" if you'd like?
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014
     
    Posted By: atomicbisf: “Ouch, I didn't notice the area involved!”:

    Yep, the downside to designing a building with lots of roof for solar collectors is that you finish up with lots of roof.

    “Out of interest, was that price just for the steel itself?”

    Yes. Looked at these sites:

    http://www.cladco.co.uk/
    http://www.planwell.co.uk/

    At least they're straightforward about pricing which is a bit of a bonus with the building industry.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014
     
    Posted By: skyewrightI can ask about brand of sheeting & "user feedback" if you'd like?
    Yes please, David. Would be interested in the flashing details round the windows particularly.
    • CommentAuthorBeau
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesPosted By: atomicbisf: “Ouch, I didn't notice the area involved!”:

    Yep, the downside to designing a building with lots of roof for solar collectors is that you finish up with lots of roof.

    “Out of interest, was that price just for the steel itself?”

    Yes. Looked at these sites:

    http://www.cladco.co.uk/" rel="nofollow" >http://www.cladco.co.uk/
    http://www.planwell.co.uk/" rel="nofollow" >http://www.planwell.co.uk/

    At least they're straightforward about pricing which is a bit of a bonus with the building industry.


    Can vouch for Cladco as have used them many times. Worth giving them a call with your concerns on the detailing.
    • CommentAuthorhairydude
    • CommentTimeJan 16th 2014
     
    I was on a velux course today demonstrating their next generation rooflights which are released in February. They have a standard flashing for profiled roofs with a profile up 120mm which covers decra, large tiles and trapezoidal or sinusoidal profiled sheets, they said that they also do bespoke flashing kits for integration into kingspan composite steel panels.

    I think you're in Scotland Ed, if youre going to be in the area you can arrange a visit to their training centre in Glenrothes and book on a free installers training course. Their next gen windows have improved the u-values also.

    I spec'd black sinusoidal sheeting to roof a shooting lodge on an estate for a client and I found myself liking the finish so much that I'm using it for my office at the new house (much cheaper than slates!)
  11.  
    Steel roofing is pretty popular over here - we used it on the new house and the price wasn't much different to conventional "shingles".

    See http://vicwest.com/residential/products/steel-roofing - not sure if it's available in Europe.

    I also saw this interesting standing seam system that incorporates insulation and thermally broken fastenings: http://www.awip-vicwest.com/products/sr2-standing-seam

    Paul in Montreal.
  12.  
    Posted By: Ed DaviesRoof is quite steeply sloped: 60°. Underneath is timber I-beams with a, presumably, OSB sarking layer on top.
    Have you checked that the I beams are OK for use at 60°pitch? Standard details often quote 45°maximum pitch. I assume this is because of the limitations of the adhesive join between web and flange. If so, you can probably go beyond 45°with appropriate reinforcement defined by a structural engineer.

    David
  13.  
    Hi Ed,

    A few things to mention about Decra - they are sensitive to algae/lichen growth, they are expensive and they don't want sales..... tried numerous times to get them to get a proper quote for me, they didn't. Maybe they will want your money but if they are funny at the start I can't imagine them being any better when it comes to honouring a 50 year guarantee or delivering on time.

    Britmet on the other hand so a similar tile (same coating as Decra) and answered the phone, quoted, sent samples and delivered the whole roof covering (around 150m2) on two pallets withing days (including membrane/valleys etc). Now all I have to do is put it on...

    There is another company who do the same style of metal tile as well but I can't remember their name. In your situation though I would stick with Planwell - it will be half the price as you say, will go on faster, won't need as much battening and won't look out of place in your style of build and it would be the same Velux flashings you will be using as with Decra (I am using EDW flashings - up to 120mm profile).
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2014
     
    Thanks for all the input, folks; makes me feel a lot happier about profile steel. Think I'll have a day out to one of the suppliers mentioned above - hardly the most efficient use of time or diesel but this is a bit of critical path item at the moment.

    (Will also discuss the 60° I-beam issue with my designer. As you say, DavidF, it ought not to be a problem with appropriate blocking on the beams.)
  15.  
    I used Plannja steel roofing sheets which cost around £17.50/m2 here including 25%VAT.

    http://www.xn--pltgrossisten-qfb.se/store/p/takpl%C3%A5t-94701/plannja-pannpl%C3%A5t-175kr-m2-85337

    As far as I know they also have a distributor in Scotland.

    Had I been able to find it at the time I would quite happily have gone for a more industrial profile such as this:

    http://www.xn--pltgrossisten-qfb.se/store/p/erbjudanden-94695/tp20-prima-0.5-mm-svart-tegelr%C3%B6d,-super-rea!-112733

    Which is about half the price.

    I did the installation myself on a 45º pitch roof, I had my brother over to help and I am very glad that I had as when you are handling sheets which are over 4m long it is a very difficult job to do yourself. Even with two of us it was a physically demanding job and I had aching leg muscles for weeks after running up and down the roof.

    You are at an advantage having the A frame roof when it comes to hauling the sheets up I had the house fully scaffolded at the time.

    With the I beams your roof should also be very regular in shape which will help a lot in keeping everything straight and true. My roof wasn't bad but there is a small hump in the back of the roof that caused some grief.

    Be careful with the production quality of the roofing you choose, if there is any variation in the profile of the sheets from top to bottom or from one sheet to the next then it can make lining everything up very difficult.

    I've no Veluxes but flashing around the dormers was very straightforward.
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesYes please, David. Would be interested in the flashing details round the windows particularly.

    You have mail...
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2014
     
    As mentioned, had a day out to Planwell today. Lots of good points (particularly that they seem very DIY friendly - giving advice, willing (preferring, actually) to supply trim and flashing once the main sheeting is installed and accurate measurements can be taken, allowing a guarantee on a DIY install with inspection and so on.

    Stopped off for soup and a roll on the way there at the Findhorn foundation. Hadn't thought until I was there but they have a lot of profile metal roofs with roof windows (and solar thermal) no problem. Also, now I'm back I see Skyewright has sent me some piccies of his neighbour's roof like this. Thanks - very handy. I'm not convinced I understand either the Findhorn or Skye versions - not sure how water doesn't flow sideways from the top of the window under the steel.

    Anyway, Planwell have a detail for fitting Veluxes but aren't overly enthusiastic about it. Neither am I as it involves a flat sheet over the top of the profile all the way up to the ridge which will be a good many metres in my case. I said various “what abouts” and they said that's the only setup they'd support.

    Wondering about stopping the profile steel and putting a gutter just above the windows then having flat steel (same colour) between and below the windows - won't be large expanses there not covered by windows or solar thermal.
  18.  
    Not wasting any time! Don't know about the houses you mention but the water in flowing sideways from the top you mention should be caught by the velux flashing back gutter and it directed down the sides of the flashing and out the bottom. Velux manual shows how to install in profile metal sheeting, it looks like planwell make their own pretty basic flashings, might be ok for cheap roof lights with little or no choice of flashings (which I imagine a lot of their customers are going to be using) but Velux should be happy supporting you using their EDW flashing.

    http://www.velux.co.uk/en-GB/Documents/Brochure%20pdfs/451767-2010-04%20compressed.pdf
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2014
     
    Thanks Willie - that's my reading for tomorrow sorted out! Read quite a few small Velux docs but that looks like it ties it all together.
  20.  
    I've just done a smaller (25sqm) shallow angle roof with 0.7mm box profile plastisol-coated steel sheeting in the simplest form - lean to sun room. My first. The "industrial" profile seems fine; we matched the pantile colour.

    I had them supplied to the right length for the application (recommended), and including roof + fixings were around £15/sqm inc VAT exc delivery per area of *roof* not material. I could probably have done better on price had I worked harder at sourcing - that is a regional supplier, but they were very helpful.

    My take aways were:

    Soft foam kneepads - I used decorators' pads - not "external" ones so that you get a larger contact area.
    A rubber mallet is very useful for checking that screws haven't missed the batten - distinct difference in echo, as is a powerful torch shone into the side gap.

    250 sqm 45 degree house roofs would scare me off. That's a whole lotta fixings.

    Previously a family member has used a product which was 100mm of insulation incorporated into a corrugated steel "sandwich" that was very difficult to work with.

    Ferdinand
  21.  
    Posted By: ferdinand2000Soft foam kneepads - I used decorators' pads - not "external" ones so that you get a larger contact area.
    A rubber mallet is very useful for checking that screws haven't missed the batten - distinct difference in echo, as is a powerful torch shone into the side gap.

    What we did was to take a short off cut of the full width of roofing material and after putting some tape along the edges to protect from scratching, used it as a straight edge to mark out every screw hole with pencil.
    Might have been time consuming but well worth it IMO as we never missed a batten.
    Particularly with the tall pitch of your roof Ed you will want to have all your screws in perfectly straight lines.
    Mark out the screw spacings on the template so you are consistent and you will be able to get all your diaginals in nice straight lines also.

    As for the knee pads I would suggest that you purchase good quality carpenters work trousers which have pockets for the knee pads. I had problems with my knees in the early stages of my build due to using inferior quality knee pads, I eventually hit on some fantastic pads made from solid slabs of gel rubber, cost about £25 but money well spent as I never had any further problem.

    It sure was an awful lot of fixings we had to order a couple of thousand extra coming to the last section of the roof, we obviously had used more than the recommended, but these nights when there's gales blowing outside I sleep soundly knowing that the roof is going nowhere!
  22.  

    What we did was to take a short off cut of the full width of roofing material and after putting some tape along the edges to protect from scratching, used it as a straight edge to mark out every screw hole with pencil.
    Might have been time consuming but well worth it IMO as we never missed a batten.
    Particularly with the tall pitch of your roof Ed you will want to have all your screws in perfectly straight lines.


    Good ideas.

    I found I had a couple of percent close enough to the edge of 38mm batten to be worth adding an extra. given that it is a windy spot. The main mistake I made was to lay two widths together in the calm before an impending wind to get them done and fixed.

    Personally, I wouldn't be confident detecting 100% of any potential misses from above.

    F
  23.  
    Posted By: ferdinand2000Personally, I wouldn't be confident detecting 100% of any potential misses from above.

    Using the template I described the only reason you could miss is if your counter battens are in a complete S hook.

    To be sure they weren't, we fixed the first counter batten against a plumb line stretched across the whole length of the roof. Laser would be better if you have one Ed. Then we cut a length of batten as a gauge to give the correct spacing between counter battens and put it in place at each batten as we nailed a counter batten to it.

    Just had a quick look at the Planwell installation instructions and they appear to specify a spacing of 1m - 1.2m between counter battens, for the product I used the spacing between counter battens was much tighter at 40cm which makes running up and down the roof a lot easier but requires a lot more fixings and probably helped to account for the fact that the complete job including rainwater took 10 days to install.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2014
     
    Lots of good advice, many thanks.

    Battens/counter-battens: aren't the battens are the horizontal pieces that the roof surface attaches to and the counter-battens the vertical pieces under the battens to allow vertical ventilation?

    My current drawings have 900 mm (counter-)batten spacing - I was looking at another supplier's site at the time I drew it and went for the minimum they recommended because of the steep roof, exposed site and the desire to hang other panels off the top.
  25.  
    Posted By: Ed DaviesBattens/counter-battens: aren't the battens are the horizontal pieces that the roof surface attaches to and the counter-battens the vertical pieces under the battens to allow vertical ventilation?

    Could well be that I have named them the wrong way around, but it appears to be a common error as a quick Google image search finds instances of them being named both ways around.

    Not sure where to find a definitive answer.

    In any case should there be any confusion in my posts above I have used "battens" for the verticals and "counter battens" for the horizontals.

    [edit] A further Google search for "counter battens definition" confirms that I have it the wrong way round in my posts above. "Counter battens" are the verticals and "battens" are the horizontals.
    • CommentAuthorBeau
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2014
     
    Where we have used profile sheet the perlins are at 1 -1.2 m. All feels very stable and able to have my weight between the perlins.
  27.  
    My spacings were about 750mm between 'counter-battens' (actually joists), and 600mm between battens, on an almost flat roof. It was an extra layer on a failing polycarb roof.

    I used 7 fixings per sqm (170 for 25 sqm plus about 3 where I added a supplementary), and 38mm x 25mm battens.

    Ferdinand
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeJan 19th 2014
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesAlso, now I'm back I see Skyewright has sent me some piccies of his neighbour's roof like this. Thanks - very handy. I'm not convinced I understand either the Findhorn or Skye versions - not sure how water doesn't flow sideways from the top of the window under the steel.

    I've had a chance to chat with the neighbour now. As willie said sideways water is addressed by the appropriate Velux fittings. The profile was Planwell & it & the Velux's have indeed performed well without problems. The roof was unlined for around 18 months (it's a long slow total refurbishment) so there was plenty of opportunity to observe the underside of the sarking and the window boxes during that time. Another point mentioned was that something like Planwell does impose constraints on the window widths, i.e. you have to choose widths that allow both sides to sit in valleys - but I'm sure you'll have that in mind already!
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2014
     
    Good point on the window widths. It's not that critical, I would have thought, as you can always go another hill over (75 mm or a bit more) adding some flat steel as extra flashing if need be. Still worth thinking about:

    Unless I've had complete brain-fade the requirement to get at least 10 mm of valley on each side is that the window width, modulo 166.7 mm, is not in the range 72.5 to 94.2 mm. As it happens, all the standard Velux widths satisfy this.

    This, of course, requires that you can tweak the window positions a bit to fit in with the profile. My worst case is a 942 mm windows between two 1200 mm o/c rafters (i.e., 600 mm o/c with one crippled) with 20 to 30 mm required each side of the window. Allowing just 20 mm on the narrower side that allows 155 mm of wiggle room. I suppose I could work out if that's always sufficient but there comes a point, even for me, when things are getting a bit overthought.
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeJan 20th 2014
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesGood point on the window widths. It's not that critical, I would have thought, as you can always go another hill over (75 mm or a bit more) adding some flat steel as extra flashing if need be. Still worth thinking about:

    Nice if you can manage to stick with the standard Velux flashing & not have extra joins...

    This, of course, requires that you can tweak the window positions a bit to fit in with the profile.
    Yes, I think it was the point of trying to have rafter spacing, profile valleys & window positions & widths in tune that that wanted to emphasise, but where there's a will there's a way, as they say...

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