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Renewable Energy: SEG and FiT

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      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2021
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenRequirements are in G98.

    You mean para 10.1.10? I confess I'm still confused because elsewhere it says that systems with a single connection that use multiple inverters are to be considered as a single microgenerator. So I'm not clear whether 10.1.10 applies or not.

    It's all angels on a pin stuff though, since G98 is too new and doesn't apply to my installation.

    Another confusing aspect is that current Enphase products are different to what I have installed and can do all the things you suggest. I don't know what mine do!
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2021
     
    Quote jms452 "Hi All,

    Next step in transferring deemed FiT export to metered fit export.

    Octopus require confirmation that the DNO has been fully notified by the installer - This is what I received from the DNO (uk power networks):

    'We have checked our records and cannot find any reference to your property address. It is possible that the installer did not notify us at the time of installation. This installation should have been notified to UK Power Networks using the EREC G59 form as the capacity is above 3.68kW, whereas if these panels were installed today, the EREC G99 form would be required. Therefore an application cannot be made using either the older G59 form (now obsolete) or G99 forms.

    Given that your PV Installation has been connected to our network for over 8 years, UK Power Networks are agreeable to it remaining connected to our network but cannot provide retrospective approval.'

    The the thing I'm confused by is that while we have 4kWp panels our inverter is 3.6kWp so I'm not convinced the DNO is correct. What is the capacity of a PV installation the total rating of the panels or the rating of the inverter (i.e. the maximum the system can ever provide to the grid)?"



    I had exactly the same issue, there was no record of our notification, I contacted the installer who gave me a copy of the original notification and I sent that to the DNO who then confirmed receipt. I was advised that early on they didn't always keep copies of the notifications. Below 3.6kWp the DNO only has to be notified above that they must preapprove the installation.
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2021
     
    thanks Nigel

    It looks like octopus have accepted the uk power networks agreement (so far anyway).

    I'll see what the installer says just in case it's easy to sort.
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2021 edited
     
    While waiting for an export meter just looked up the outgoing agile price (when it's not windy) compared to the 5.5p flat rate.
      Screenshot 2021-05-19 at 19.06.12.png
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeJun 21st 2021
     
    ok, so after:

    Smart meter fitting
    Retrospective permission from the DNO
    Final meter reading
    Written acknowledgement from FiT Generation admin that they won't pay Export Generation anymore.

    I'm finally on Outgoing Agile (and payments will be backdated to the day of the final meter reading).

    Not sure how long it will last but the rate is still similar to above (about twice the 5.5p default). Also now on metered export that should also increase the Export Generation.
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2021
     
    They told me I would no longer get the deemed export.

    However on my FIT statement I am being paid 5.5p per actual unit exported based on smart meter readings.
    This is in addition to the Agile Outgoing payment.

    Fortunately for them I don't export that much as I charge my car and heat my hot water with any excess.
  7.  
    Nigel, maybe I misunderstood but isn't FiT payable on total amount generated,?

    If you are getting 5.5p FIT and ~12p export per unit exported, does it work out cheaper to export everything you possibly can during the mid-day peak, and charge your car/DHW by importing at low-demand times, eg mid afternoon or 3am? Eg they have a tariff where you can import at 5p for a few hours each day.

    That's what the variable pricing is supposed to incentivise, but would be interested how it actually works out for you?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2021
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenNigel, maybe I misunderstood but isn't FiT payable on total amount generated,?

    FIT is payable both on generation and export, with export deemed at 50% in most normal domestic installations. Details at https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-programmes/fit/fit-tariff-rates
  9.  
    "You won’t be able to receive FiT export payments whilst also being on the Outgoing Octopus tariff. However, you will still be able to receive your generation payments. "
    https://octopus.energy/blog/outgoing/

    I had understood that the 5.5p Nigel mentioned is his generation payment, which I had assumed would be measured by his generation meter, not his smart meter as he mentioned. The export payment is replaced by the variable Octopus tariff, recently of 10-12p around noon per the graph.

    Or not?

    Edit: if the generation payment were only payable on electricity which was exported through the SM, and not self-consumed, it would add to the incentive to export the PV during periods of high demand, and re-import it later for self consumption. Like the reverse of those PV diverter devices.

    Even if the generation FiT is not paid according to export, it's still a good deal to export everything at 10-12p when it is needed by others, and re-import it on their 5p Go tariff overnight.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2021 edited
     
    Posted By: nigel

    However on my FIT statement I am being paid 5.5p per actual unit exported based on smart meter readings.

    As I understand it, the FIT export payment isnt directly metered its just a deemed 50% of your generation meter reading. Thats how ours is paid as we dont have a smart/export meter.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2021
     
    Posted By: philedge
    Posted By: nigelHowever on my FIT statement I am being paid 5.5p per actual unit exported based on smart meter readings.

    As I understand it, the FIT export payment isnt directly metered its just a deemed 50% of your generation meter reading. Thats how ours is paid as we dont have a smart/export meter.

    If you have a smart meter then it can measure export, and you can be paid FIT on actual exports. But I believe you can also choose to continue with deemed payments, to avoid prejudicing anybody against choosing a smart meter.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2021
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenOr not?

    I think we'll have to wait for Nigel to come back and restate what he meant.

    The generation payments (a) aren't, or shouldn't, be affected by Octopus Agile Outgoing and (b) are measured by the generation meter that everybody has by law. So I doubt he was commenting about his generation payments.

    I can't be bothered to look up the ofgem tables to check the many and various rates available but to me 5.5p smells more like an export rate than a generation rate. So I think he meant what he wrote. What he didn't say was who he's using for FIT payments; if it's not Octopus then a cock-up seems quite likely to me.
  13.  
    Posted By: philedge
    As I understand it, the FIT export payment isnt directly metered its just a deemed 50% of your generation meter reading. Thats how ours is paid as we dont have a smart/export meter.
    But as JMS points out, he is being paid twice as much, now that he is not on deemed export, and is being paid for every unit he exports (not just the first 50% of generation).
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2021
     
    I am getting 5.5p per kWh for export as measured by my smart meter in addition to the FIT measured by generation meter.

    They are paid at the same time but worked out separately as part of my quarterly FIT payment.

    In addition to I am getting paid by Octopus Agile based on half hourly meter readings, my latest payment for May was at an average of 8.35p per kWh.
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2021
     
    I have my FIT with Octopus as well as my supply.

    It may be thats how they are able to use smart meter readings for export as they already have access for use in my supply billing.
    It may be that if my FIT was with another supplier they would have to use the deemed 50% as they would not have access to actual export readings.
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2021
     
    There may be some confusion, generation and export are both part of the FiT scheme

    FiT Generation
    Paid on total amount generated
    about 15-40p based on install date

    FiT Export
    Can be:
    Deemed export
    typically 5.5p for half your generation

    or

    Measured export (via smart meter) which can be
    flat rate of 5.5.p based on what you actually export
    or
    time of use rate of 0-20p based on what you actually export & when

    Fit Generation and Fit export don't need to be administered by the same company

    Simple :devil:
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2021
     
    Posted By: jms452Fit Generation and Fit export don't need to be administered by the same company

    And neither need to be the same as your energy supplier :bigsmile:

    Simple :devil:
    :devil:

    So AFAICT Nigel has explained himself well, and it is indeed a bit of a mystery why he is being paid what he is; especially all by the same company. But I guess they are different departments. Perhaps best to fess up and see what they say?
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2021
     
    Posted By: djh
    If you have a smart meter then it can measure export, and you can be paid FIT on actual exports.


    Didnt know export could be deemed or metered. Thanks for the enlightenment:)
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2021
     
    Posted By: nigel

    Fortunately for them I don't export that much as I charge my car and heat my hot water with any excess.



    Posted By: nigelI am getting 5.5p per kWh for export as measured by my smart meter in addition to the FIT measured by generation meter.

    They are paid at the same time but worked out separately as part of my quarterly FIT payment.

    In addition to I am getting paid by Octopus Agile based on half hourly meter readings, my latest payment for May was at an average of 8.35p per kWh.


    If youre exporting next to nothing is it definitely worth opting for metered payments over deemed ones?
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2021
     
    If you don’t export much you want to choose deemed export.

    I have just submitted this quarters FIT reading so will check if they are still paying me twice, if they are I will query it with them. The last statement I could find was from October last year.

    It took Octopus 9 months to move my FIT across from Scottish Power so I don’t expect a quick response.
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2021
     
    I didn’t actually choose metered but I did sign up for Agile outgoing and this should remove the FIT export payment and pay for export via the agile tariff.

    The reason I chose this is that I have two Pv systems only one of which is eligible for FIT so I expected I would get nothing for export at times if I didn’t do this.

    Agile outgoing rates have though been very high since the beginning of this year whereas last year they were more like 5 pkWh and now nearer 8.5p.
    • CommentAuthorphiledge
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2021
     
    If youre exporting from both arrays through a single meter, how do you know how much export to attribute to each system ie how much is FIT and how much is SEG? I guess your set up is a bit of an oddball with 2 separate arrays and maybe Octopus arent geared up for it?? Could it be the combined export meter readings are being used for both FIT and SEG payments thus doubling your payments???
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeJun 23rd 2021
     
    There is only one export meter and I shouldn't be getting the FIT export as well as the Outgoing Agile, or so they told me.

    There appears to be something wrong at Octopus paying both if its still wrong on my next statement I will query it with them.

    I have separate meters for generation so there is no doubling up there.
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeJul 3rd 2021
     
    Our smart meter that is now actually exporting the export data and we have a couple of weeks of data.

    Rather than 50% deemed export we are exporting metered 74%
    Rather than the flat rate export of 5.5p/kWh we are now averaging over 11p/kWh.
    i.e. triple the export income.

    The Octopus accounts in combination with the smart meter do also give access to some nice data logging that you can download and play with.

    Caveats: The wholesale prices are unusually high at the moment, most of our panels are WSW facing and we are pretty low users so these financials won't necessarily apply to everyone or longer term.

    As I was warned at the start of this it was a 'significant hassle'!
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2021 edited
     
    Following up on this as a few months ago I gave the caveat that electricity wholesale prices were unusually high

    Posted By: jms452Caveats: The wholesale prices are unusually high at the moment, most of our panels are WSW facing and we are pretty low users so these financials won't necessarily apply to everyone or longer term.


    Prices have now got a lot higher (i.e. over 30p/kWh at the moment on top of FiT). While this caveat still applies some are saying this could go on for a year or two - if you have significant solar PV I'd really seriously consider outgoing agile!

    I can also now confirm that it hasn't messed up the Fit generation payment:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2021
     
    Looks I missed an opportunity I went fixed price for 12 months on outgoing as did not know much about the SEG. Mind you as have had problems with Octopus reading my meter on export (they are reading my usage no problem)
    would had even more hassle as would not have had the 1/2 hr readings. Have had to supply a manual reading for the export. Come renewal will go for the variable as I am exporting more in the mid to late pm than during the day as AM is used to charge the battery then when full starts to export or we use it.
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeSep 3rd 2021
     
    Revoir - Octopus call it Beta which I think is fair!

    The export meter took a couple of weeks of nagging to start working properly for me.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeSep 5th 2021
     
    The only comment I have seen on the Octopus website about Beta is IHD that is not the issue the export data never has appeared on the IHD the problem is that the Smart meter is not communicating properly with Octopus and whilst the meter was updated with all the tariffs (which then communicates with IHD) they are there can see them along with the readings it is only sending the data for the usage. I therefor can only see the 1/2 hr readings for the usage and the historical export pre meter tariff update. I have been nagging for 10 weeks think they are inundated with queries as I used to get replies within 24 hours now can be several days.
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2021
     
    Posted By: revorThe only comment I have seen on the Octopus website about Beta is IHD that is not the issue the export data never has appeared on the IHD the problem is that the Smart meter is not communicating properly with Octopus and whilst the meter was updated with all the tariffs (which then communicates with IHD) they are there can see them along with the readings it is only sending the data for the usage. I therefor can only see the 1/2 hr readings for the usage and the historical export pre meter tariff update. I have been nagging for 10 weeks think they are inundated with queries as I used to get replies within 24 hours now can be several days.


    Website says:

    'outgoingOctopus is a beta product. This means it's not always going to be perfect while we work out any early snags. It is a complex product, and it may take us a little while to perfect the billing and reporting that accompanies the tariff, and sometimes your online account or in-home display (a pretty basic display system with no real capability for reporting dynamic pricing) might throw up some weird numbers. We'll always make sure financial transactions are resolved, even if there's a reporting error.

    As an early adopter on the tariff, you can give us input as to what works, and what doesn't – and you get access to cutting edge technologies months ahead of the market. The flip-side is that sometimes industry systems take a while to catch up with us.'

    https://octopus.energy/outgoing/
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2021
     
    Thanks for that did not see that bit and was never mentioned in our exchanges on the matter. Must be a nightmare for those on variable tariff if the 1/2 hour readings are not recorded.

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