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Politics: Should we have proportional representation?

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    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2010
     
    I think this election more than any other I remember highlights the unfairness of the first past the post system.
  2.  
    Indeed.
  3.  
    ...but what mechanism can make it come about... the deal could be there for Cleggie with Labour but still no overal majority, the Tories and LDs would have the seats but no deal on offer on PR...

    J
    • CommentAuthoraa44
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2010
     
    If Clegg did a deal with Labour because they offered a referendum on PR then that would directly contradict what he said during the election, i.e. that the party with the largest mandate should get the first chance to form a government and would, I think, be highly dishonest.

    Should we have PR? If we no longer have a two party system then definitely yes. A system where the majority of votes effectively do not count can not be good for democracy.
  5.  
    The problem is tactical voting which Ive always thought as a very cynical and cowardly way to vote. If people just voted for they actualy wanted in power, this wouldnt have happened.

    Another issue is having only 1 day for everyone to vote and then complaining that not enough people are voting. Should be 3 days over the weekend to give everyone a chance to get their bum off the sofa.
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2010
     
    highlights the unfairness of the first past the post system

    There is an upside:

    British National Party Seats: 0 Votes: 539,841
    • CommentAuthorbeelbeebub
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2010 edited
     
    Changing the voting system (say to PR) may not result in a "fair" system. There will always be quirks whichever system you choose.

    New Scientist has an interesting article this week (1May) on voting systems and their idiosyncrasies. Including the "Alabama paradox" in proportional representation systems, where a state can lose a representative simply by the total number of representatives being increased.

    One thought: it seems to me that some of the fairness problems come from the fact that every MP has the same vote regardless of how they were elected.

    For example, an MP with +50% of the constituency vote and a comfortable majority has the same vote in parliament as an MP who scraped in with less than a third of the constituency vote and a majority of 5 after a number of recounts.

    What if we had a system where each constituency returns (say) up to 4 MPs, The first MP will be the one with the most votes and will have the voting power of the number of voters who selected them. the second MP will be the second place person, with the voting power of the number of voters who voted for them. This continues until the limit for the number of MP is reached or the vote share drops below (say) 10%.

    (Edit)
    Of course to keep the number of MP's down, each constituency would be four times as big so instead of 600+ constituencies we'd have ~150 bigger ones each returning up to 4 MP's so we'd probably end up with less MP's as some constituencies would return less than 4 MPs.
    (Edit)

    We would then have a situation where the government is not determined purely by the number of seats, but by the number of people who voted for them.

    In effect the MP would really be the representative for the people who voted for them rather than representing people who may have voted against them. The representing of those would be the responsibility of the MP who they did vote for. This would ensure that there is a connection between the MP and their voters

    The cut off point would eliminate the "long tail". For example the BNP have polled just under 2% of the national vote, if we had pure PR (like Israel) then they would have 2 out of every 100 MP's so 12 in our current parliament (they have 0 in the current parliament).

    e.g.
    The average constituency size is 300,000 with 66.6% turnout i.e 200,000 voters.

    Blueville North returns 100,000 for Blue, 50,000 for Red 50,000 for Yellow : Result 3 MP's Mr Blue has 100,000 votes, Mr Red 50,000 and Mr Yellow 50,000.

    It would make votes in the house of commons a bit difficult as various MP's would have different "powers", computers would probably be needed especially if it was not a simple party block vote.

    It would also allow for voters to have an MP of their party to go to, It would make voting even if you are a minority in your area worth while.

    It would also have the effect that voters could really hold their MP to account as the mP would litterally be using their votes. If the MP used the votes he was given to vote for something in the party interest but not in his voters interest they could really hold them to account.
    • CommentAuthorJohn B
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2010
     
    Posted By: aa44If Clegg did a deal with Labour because they offered a referendum on PR then that would directly contradict what he said during the election, i.e. that the party with the largest mandate should get the first chance to form a government and would, I think, be highly dishonest.

    Apparently he's waiting for an offer from the Tories before discussing a deal with Labour, so seems to be playing fair.

    I couldn't vote for the party I wanted to vote for, and PR is preferable to moving to Brighton!
    • CommentAuthorbampton
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2010
     
    Brighton's OK
    • CommentAuthorJoiner
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2010
     
    "What if we had a system where each constituency returns (say) up to 4 MPs"

    Ahum. Four times of parliamentary expenses to be fiddled; four times of generous pensions...

    Yeah, why not. We can afford it!
  11.  
    BIG HURRAH for Caroline lucas ,winning Brighton for the Greens

    Some sort of PRs got to be an improvement for democracy , hopefully encouraging bigger turn outs in those seats where large majorities make many peoples vote meaningless, feeding apathy.

    Even if it results in representation for the views of groups that other may find unpleasent.

    Compromise is a daily routine for all and has many benefits even when it ends up in half baked fudge
  12.  
    Yeah, I agree, James. Why be scared of BNP MPs - the more they are heard the less folk will listen.
    but they are a voice that represents a lot of people at the moment, Sweeping them under the carpet is no way forward. Unless folk're afraid they've no answers to their suggestions. I know I've got plenty.

    If Nick Clegg can keep his nerve and we end up with, say, the STV system then we lose the need for "tactical voting" and the feeling of not having a say. In thirty years I have yet to vote for the winning candidate - and I don't support the Monster Raving Loony party. I want my voting to count and no longer to be poorly governed by politicians drawn from a small minority of interests in the country. The thought of being ruled by Eton again is just too appalling.
  13.  
    "What if we had a system where each constituency returns (say) up to 4 MPs"

    forgot to mention, each constituency would be four times as big so instead of 600+ constituencies we'd have ~150 bigger ones each returning up to 4 MP's so we'd probably end up with less MP's as some constituencies would return less than 4 MPs.

    I've edited the original
  14.  
    "The thought of being ruled by Eton again is just too appalling"

    When was the last Eton educated PM?

    It was Sir Alec Douglas-Home, (who?) for just under a year (63-64) and before him MacMillan from 57 to 63.

    Hardly cripplingly bad times for the UK, whatever your background.

    What is the problem people have with people who were educated at Eton?

    Would someone stand up and say "The though of being rued by someone who went to a comprehensive is just to appalling"?

    Brightgreen, I'm not having a go, but there does seem to be a current of inverse snobbery in this country where if someone is from a "privileged" background it is immediately assumed that all their achievements are not due to their efforts but simply down to "the old boys network", I'm not saying that there aren't people who trade on their connections but being from a "privilege" background doesn't automatically mean you can't be intelligent, any more than being from a working class background means you are only good for manual labour and unskilled work.

    For the record, I'm not 100% sold on the competence of David Cameron & George Osborne but that's down to an unease over some of the policy statements and decisions they've made rather than the fact they're a bit (ok alot) posh.

    Also for the record I didn't go to Eton.:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2010
     
    Yes, strangely it is overwhelmingly deemed OK to be rude about toffs (especially Eton-educated) and Americans. Even people who go out of their way to avoid gross generalisations are still happy to do this.
  16.  
    If you do want to add your signature to a campaign for PR, you might consider signing up to this alliance of organisations:

    http://www.takebackparliament.com/

    D
    •  
      CommentAuthorbetterroof
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2010 edited
     
    another couple of org's to lend your voice to:

    http://38degrees.org.uk/

    http://www.power2010.org.uk/

    both very active at making noise about relevant topics to your mp's and the political system at large. well worth signing up to and adding your voice at this moment.
  18.  
  19.  
    • CommentAuthorTuna
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010 edited
     
    A lot of the pro- and anti- pr commentary is coming from parties (and individuals) who believe that they will specifically benefit or loose out from a change to PR. Hard not to take it all with a very, very big pinch of salt.

    My two concerns with PR are that the current round of haggling and political in-fighting would be repeated after every election and we would see about 12 BNP seats in the commons. Nick Clegg is currently making a very good case against PR with his dithering and inconsistency.
    • CommentAuthorsinnerboy
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010 edited
     
    Posted By: TunaNick Clegg is currently making a very good case against PR with his dithering and inconsistency.


    Better to get things right NOW - so the next govt. lasts 5 years . We may marry in haste and repent at leisure . What strikes me as the most awful aspect of this situation is "the markets" don't like it .

    Reality check - The UK HAS a govt today and Gordon Brown IS the PM . So whats the rush ? And who are these f*******s so impatient for the formation of a sovereign government - not the same folk who brought us to this sorry economic pass , surely ?

    Where does power really lie ?
    • CommentAuthorTuna
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010
     
    There's no rush - what's disconcerting is that there seems to be a disconnect between the Lib Dem leadership and the rest of the party. From an outsider's perspective Nick Clegg is all over the place and has handled the negotiations pretty badly so far.

    We need stability, and instead we've got a Labour government who have lost their leader and are more concerned with the upcoming contest than governing the country. We've got the Lib Dems muddying the water. We've got the Tories sitting on their hands. I can see why all three parties are in this situation, but none of that helps the country move forward.

    The only reason we've not been punished harder by the markets is that the Eurozone bailout is bigger news right now.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010 edited
     
    Posted By: Tuna From an outsider's perspective Nick Clegg is all over the place and has handled the negotiations pretty badly so far.



    Tuna,

    I am interested to know how you are privey to the negotiations when no-one else seems to know their content?
  24.  
    Does anyone have a view about being ruled by Scots?

    Only hope they sort it out soon - or they'll be sending in the IMF and we'll be in the same boat as the Greeks.

    How about a Nick Clegg / Ed Milliband combo?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010
     
    Posted By: mrswhitecatDoes anyone have a view about being ruled by Scots?
    Why should we? Everyone knows they don't mind being ruled by English.
    • CommentAuthorsinnerboy
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010 edited
     
    Posted By: mrswhitecatDoes anyone have a view about being ruled by Scots?


    I expect they do in Scotland
    • CommentAuthorTuna
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010
     
    Posted By: joe90Tuna,

    I am interested to know how you are privey to the negotiations when no-one else seems to know their content?


    Umm... I said "From an outsider's perspective".. how is that confusing?

    Clegg first said that it would be right to form a coalition with the largest party, then it's emerged he's been talking with Labour, then it seems that it might not be until the weekend when he can get approval from the party. It's unclear what he is hoping to achieve here - hence my comment that he's all over the place.
    • CommentAuthorsinnerboy
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010 edited
     
    He is not all over the place - he is NEGOTIATING with the Tories . By keeping the Lib/Lab option alive he is not simply going to gratefully accept what they (Tories) deign to offer . He's right too IMO .
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010
     
    Posted By: sinnerboyI expect they do in Scotland
    Having just re-watched Ryan's daughter then attended VE+75 remembrance/celebrations in Normandy last Sat, I am completely certain that all the nations of the residual English Empire (now that the British Empire's gone) do mind being ruled by English. I was struck by a line in the papers over the w/e, that no one knows what the Belgian government is for any more, having handed nearly all power either up to Europe or down to her regions. Sounds good to me.
    • CommentAuthorsinnerboy
    • CommentTimeMay 11th 2010 edited
     
    All peoples desire self determination I think that is self evident . Ryans daughter is set in an entirely different time Tom have so have no fear- pop over and I'll buy you a pint or three ( of the black stuff ) :wink:

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