Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!


powered by Surfing Waves




Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




    • CommentAuthorbrig001
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2009
     
    DoctorJez, cool photo. He fixed it by sealing the downstairs skirting to the floor, sealing the tops along the gable walls and the other two sides by lifting the upstairs floor. It might not be the best, but was the easiest and the house is probably 90%+ of where it should be. Made a huge improvement to comfort and heat loss, so he is happy.
    • CommentAuthorsinnerboy
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2009
     
    Dr Jez - many thanks .

    I have been recently surprised to hear of quite good AT results arising in 60s/70s houses around Dublin - typically concrete floor , solid or hollow concrete block wet plastered internal , smooth render external. Typically not insulated at time of construction and typically dry lined + replacement DG windows in the follow on years .

    Q50 / 5 - 4 results on houses found "as - is" i.e. no remedial AT actions taken prior to test. It would appear that the "expedience" of dot/dab plaster boarding ( early 80s on ) is an innovation we all could have done without.
  1.  
    Doctor Jez - you got it - though I must admit there was a hefty clue in the name. You are correct of course - relying on the inner plasterboard skin to provide the air barrier is not the way to go. BUT... I've worked on sites where properties that hadn't been pressure tested (most, of course) had developed this fault and the owners first noticed the draught, rather than the gap. Prior to carrying out the repairs (quadrant beading at that time) held a lighter to the gap, seen the flame move or sometimes even be blown out, because the primary air barrier was ineffective (poor sealing at various points, such as around joist ends, cavity closers etc, and also, as you say, that all-important top floor ceiling/wall junction. My point is this - It's all very well testing a percentage of properties at the 'brand new' stage - properties where a great deal of care will have been taken to ensure that the primary air barrier is sound.... In the real world, once those properties have passed the test, the remainder may not have the same care taken, and rely on the plasterboard skin. Parging coat on all externall walls? Well yes - that would make a massive difference. But then you're back to the drying out problem. The main advantage of dot and dab (probably the only one, since I'm not keen on it) is the reduction in drying out time. The other option is back to hardwall plastering - but, as I was discussing with a site manager this morning - how many plasterers are there who can still do it???
    • CommentAuthorsinnerboy
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2009
     
    Ah yes - drying out time . That 80's buzz word which ushered in dot and dab . Not taking a pop at you kgr - just lamenting the builders gain and the home owners loss
    • CommentAuthorDoctorJez
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2009
     
    kgr

    drying times for modern parge coats can be as low as a few hours after which time you can apply the plasterboard. In many cases builders are using parge coats on party walls anyway for acoustic purposes - for example Part E robust detail EMW4 which is a block-block party wall with 75mm cavity, parge coat on the blocks and plasterboard on dabs - it is the most common masonry robust detail and one of the bst performing (it is also a thermal bypass but that is another story) - so to carry on the parge coat to the external walls is only a marginal cost.

    Your point on the lack of site testing is well taken and has concerned us for a long time - in particular on large devleopments where only one of each one house type needs to be tested - which on big sites means that after the initial tests on the very first dwellings no more are tested for years. The Part L 2010 consultation document tries to address this problem by penalising developers who don't test frequently with a 2 m3/h.m2 penalty on the mran measured air permeability - see below - it is section 4.8 in the consultation document which can be downloaded from http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/planningandbuilding/pdf/partlf2010consultationvol2.pdf. Whether this stays in the regulations after the consultation is another matter.

    Jez

    "4.8 To comply with regulation 17C, the proposed Dwelling CO2 Emission Rate (DER)
    must be no worse than the TER calculated as set out in paragraphs 4.2 to 4.6. The
    final DER calculation produced in accordance with regulation 20D (see paragraph
    4.9 below) must be based on the building as constructed, incorporating:
    a. any changes to the performance specifications that have been made during
    construction; and
    b. the assessed air permeability. The assessed air permeability shall be
    determined as follows:
    i) where the dwelling has been pressure tested, the assessed air
    permeability is the measured air permeability;
    ii) where the dwelling has not been tested, the assessed air permeability
    is the average test result obtained from other dwellings of the same
    dwelling type on the development increased by a margin of +2.0 m3/
    (h.m2) at 50 Pa;
    iii) on small developments (see paragraph 5.15), where the builder has opted to
    avoid testing, the assessed air permeability is the value of 15 m3/(h.m2)
    at 50 Pa."
    • CommentAuthorsinnerboy
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2009 edited
     
    http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,19069,en.pdf

    Irish requirements . Page 23 . Part 1.5.4.3

    Note there is no avoidance - even with small developments

    ( NB DEAP is equivalent to SAP )
    • CommentAuthorDoctorJez
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2009 edited
     
    sinnerboy - with the energy penalty that comes with a 15m3/h.m2 air permeability and the 25% reduction in TER in the 2010 regs, I doubt that any small developers will avoid testing due to the additional cost for the better fabric U-values that would be required to offset the higher air permeability in order to meet the TER target. In most cases it would be cheaper to get a pressure test done. In any case, in our experience houses built by smaller developers are more airtight than those built by the big boys.

    Jez
  2.  
    Dr. Jez - I meant drying out times, not setting times actually. But we're going down a different path now, and arguing that point or any other, was not my original motive for opening this discussion - I asked for contributions and clarification as to how the Part L regulations were actually implemented - i.e. the reality, rather than the theoretical ideal - and that has been acheived (including contributions from yourself, for which I am grateful.) The product you mention was never in fact designed to facilitate Part L compliance - it was designed simply for its aesthetic purposes; the subject was only raised recently by the architect of a small development where it has been used, and his comments re. the draught-reducing benefits were unexpected - I hadn't actually thought of it before. I wanted to be sure, before mentioning that as a benefit, that it could be honestly claimed to do just that. The end result of it all seems unclear, and I think time will tell, after we see what revisions are made to the regulations after the end of the consultation period. Sinnerboy - I was in Ballymena last Autumn, speaking to several developers. Over there, I was reliably informed, the ratio of hardwall plastered houses to dot and dab, was around 90% to 10%, in traditional construction. ( Though timber frame seems to be gaining popularity over there faster than here.) I'm wondering if that has anything to do with the regulations being tighter? Since 90% of construction uses a method that makes it far easier to comply, only 10% of those affected need to tighten up their methods, at the most. I did notice also, that the quality of the work seemed far better, on the sites I visited.
    • CommentAuthorsinnerboy
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2009
     
    In Dublin now in this housing market - customer is king . Just recently on a multi unit development - when one guy saw a house being tested - they all wanted it . And they all got it too . Regs did not enter into it .

    Dr Jez - I agree the small guy tends to build better then the mass producer - as a rule .
  3.  
    In answer to the original question....each dwelling type falls into a sampling regime which 0-4 of the same type =1 test, 5-40 of the same type = 2 tests. Anything over 40 then goes into a % calculation.

    Sampling types at present are pretty striaght forward i.e end terrace, detached, bungalow, ground floor flat etc etc. Expect this sampling regime to become less generic if the recent consultation is passed......The amount of testing could at least double!
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
 
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press