Green Building Forum - Carbon Capture and Storage Tue, 19 Dec 2023 07:34:36 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274326#Comment_274326 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274326#Comment_274326 Sun, 23 Jun 2019 20:14:14 +0100 djh http://www.softmachines.org/wordpress/?p=2346
and the implications for current UK political strategy.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274327#Comment_274327 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274327#Comment_274327 Sun, 23 Jun 2019 23:13:36 +0100 Mike1
What I wouldn't want to see is the cost-effectiveness of CCS being improved by using the captured carbon to pressurise otherwise uneconomic oil and gas fields to aid extraction (enhanced oil recovery), as was advocated in the Oxburgh Report - http://www.sccs.org.uk/images/expertise/reports/oxford/oxburgh_report_the_critical_role_of_CCS.pdf]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274328#Comment_274328 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274328#Comment_274328 Mon, 24 Jun 2019 08:33:31 +0100 sam_cat
How about the subsidies for fossil and nuke are also removed, level playing field...
"£10.5bn a year in support for fossil fuels in the UK"]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274330#Comment_274330 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274330#Comment_274330 Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:15:27 +0100 Mike1 Posted By: sam_cat"How about the subsidies for fossil and nuke are also removed, level playing field...
"£10.5bn a year in support for fossil fuels in the UK"

I agree with the principle - though some issues - like phasing out the VAT reduction on domestic fuel will be politically difficult.

Just look at the details, that figure apparently (https://www.eceee.org/all-news/news/uk-has-biggest-fossil-fuel-subsidies-in-the-eu-finds-commission/) comes from the 2016 Eurostat data, prepared by Tinomics, which provides a figure of 26.3 B€ for all UK energy-related subsidies in 2016.

The annexes to that report (https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/ener/files/documents/energy_prices_and_costs_-_final_report_-_annexes_v12.3.pdf) include several interesting graphs for the UK on page 429. For example showing that subsidies in the UK fell in 2016... almost exclusively by slashing 1.29 B€ support for energy savings.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274331#Comment_274331 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274331#Comment_274331 Mon, 24 Jun 2019 12:27:43 +0100 finnian
So CCS is helpful as a way to capture some of these emissions, or draw net carbon from the atmosphere if biomass (hopefully mostly waste) is being burned.

Stabilising sea level, for example, requires reducing temperatures to pre-industrial levels, not just stopping at 2 degrees.

Also fossil thermal power plants can be relatively easily switched on or off (dispatchable), which would be useful for filling the gaps in a grid that is largely renewables, or meeting intermediate/peak loads in a nuclear grid.

I wouldn't be surprised if CCS played some small role eventually, but it is not the least-cost emissions-control method at the moment...]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274332#Comment_274332 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274332#Comment_274332 Mon, 24 Jun 2019 13:54:17 +0100 gyrogear
gg]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274333#Comment_274333 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274333#Comment_274333 Mon, 24 Jun 2019 14:16:22 +0100 Peter_in_Hungary Posted By: gyrogearThe simplest & cheapest way to achieve CCS is to start growing hemp on a worldwide industrial basis, then turn it into houses.gg

Providing you don't need the land to grow food]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274334#Comment_274334 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274334#Comment_274334 Mon, 24 Jun 2019 14:21:52 +0100 fostertom Posted By: finnianif biomass (hopefully mostly waste) is being burnedThat's another thing - waste (meaning black bin/landfill waste, what remains after ever-more-complete recycling) is either mainly plastic, with precious metals/minerals, or non-combustible; is our future supply of raw (very raw) materials once the oil fountain is switched off.

It should be stockpiled aka landfilled until ever-more-sophisticated automatic sorting technologies intersect with rising rarity/price of hydrocarbons and precious metals/minerals, so that the stockpiles can be quarried, once drilling/quarrying of virgin materials grinds to a near halt, as it must.

It's consuming our seedcorn, to burn it.

There's vast amounts of already-extracted materials in circulation in the biosphere, while the quantity of material required for any given purpose is decreasing.

Time to stop quarrying, start serious 100% recovery and recycling.
CCS only for that purpose - recovery - def not as a band-aid to allow biz-as-usual.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274335#Comment_274335 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274335#Comment_274335 Mon, 24 Jun 2019 14:55:44 +0100 finnian
The CO2 can potentially be made into synthetic fuel, then turned back into plastic. Or buried.

Think CCS is going to be too expensive to allow business as usual, anyway: this is why the pilot schemes have shut down. Renewables are just cheaper and easier.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274338#Comment_274338 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274338#Comment_274338 Tue, 25 Jun 2019 01:17:03 +0100 Mike1 Posted By: finnianAlso fuel may be needed for aircraft etc (hydrogen is technically possible but with the obvious perceived risk).
Hydrogen is already in use on a test basis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen-powered_aircraft
The first (small, short distance) electric planes have just gone commercial: https://qz.com/1650449/electric-airplanes-take-flight-at-the-paris-air-show/
Hybrids are under development: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zunum_Aero
And airships look like going commercial (again) from 2022: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-03-10/china-s-hoping-airships-will-revolutionize-air-transport

Posted By: finnian
Stabilising sea level, for example, requires reducing temperatures to pre-industrial levels, not just stopping at 2 degrees.

..which could take >1,000 years (old 2009 paper, so would be no surprise if current estimate is longer: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/01/090127163403.htm)

Posted By: finnian
Also fossil thermal power plants can be relatively easily switched on or off (dispatchable), which would be useful for filling the gaps in a grid that is largely renewables, or meeting intermediate/peak loads in a nuclear grid.

Though 100% renewables seems possible in Europe by 2050:https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306261918312790

...and in most of the rest of the World too: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/09/countries-100-renewable-energy-by-2050/

And Iceland has already done it: https://www.100-percent.org/iceland/]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274340#Comment_274340 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274340#Comment_274340 Tue, 25 Jun 2019 09:58:32 +0100 finnian
If you go to net negative emissions, you can bring down CO2 levels faster than on a 1000 year timescale, but this is obviously an issue for future generations.

Note that the Europe 100% renewables plan you linked to involved burning quite a lot of biomass. So I guess I should have said that dispatchable thermal power plants are useful for keeping the lights on whether or not they burn fossil fuel. How much biofuel is sustainable anyway? Probably not very much. Burning biomass in Drax is not counted as 'renewable' by some accounts...]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274341#Comment_274341 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274341#Comment_274341 Tue, 25 Jun 2019 10:38:55 +0100 fostertom https://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2019/06/national-grid-north-sea-link-interconnector-norway

It's the giantest battery yet.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274347#Comment_274347 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274347#Comment_274347 Tue, 25 Jun 2019 18:46:39 +0100 Mike1 Posted By: finnianAlso, you have to capture the resulting water rather than dump it in the stratosphere, because this is otherwise almost as bad as CO2.
It looks like an alternative is to avoid / minimise creating contrails, as it's the cirrus cloud they cause that results in most warming. There already seems to be work on that, and that the absence of soot / sulphur / NOx from a hydrogen engine / fuel cell helps too, as their presence causes nucleation of ice crystals.

https://www.reading.ac.uk/news-archive/press-releases/pr586136.html
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-04068-0
https://dspace.lib.cranfield.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1826/2966/Noppel%202007.pdf]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274354#Comment_274354 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274354#Comment_274354 Tue, 25 Jun 2019 22:47:26 +0100 finnian
That's probably the way to go in the long term, but power density of fuel cells is still not there for airliner-speed flight.

Nearer-term is using hydrogen in conventional turbines. Deals with sulfur/soot issue (although just removing the sulfur from jet fuel isn't that hard), but not necessarily NOx. About twice as much water vapour per Joule though.

Minimising contrail production is a good idea... think there are easier options than converting all the planes to hydrogen though. Just moving some flight routes and altitudes a bit would help a lot. And using clean fuel.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274355#Comment_274355 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274355#Comment_274355 Tue, 25 Jun 2019 22:50:40 +0100 finnian
https://www.carbonbrief.org/explainer-challenge-tackling-aviations-non-co2-emissions]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274356#Comment_274356 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274356#Comment_274356 Tue, 25 Jun 2019 23:40:03 +0100 gyrogear
Not a single mention of airfield rubber removal !

gg]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274368#Comment_274368 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274368#Comment_274368 Wed, 26 Jun 2019 18:12:01 +0100 Mike1 Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274372#Comment_274372 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274372#Comment_274372 Thu, 27 Jun 2019 10:05:11 +0100 fostertom Tata-owned Cheshire plant to turn 40,000 tonnes of CO2 a year into useful products"

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jun/27/uks-biggest-carbon-capture-project-is-step-change-on-emissions

The photo caption says "Biomass fuel produced at Drax power station in north Yorkshire" - presumably from the captutred CO2 - a bit self-defeating?!
But that's not mentioned in the article.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274373#Comment_274373 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274373#Comment_274373 Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:35:03 +0100 gyrogear
gg]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274375#Comment_274375 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=274375#Comment_274375 Thu, 27 Jun 2019 13:27:13 +0100 finnian
I wonder how many pounds of sherbet the average person would want: thinking that 40,000 tonnes probably saturates the market.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292735#Comment_292735 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292735#Comment_292735 Sat, 30 Oct 2021 20:22:19 +0100 djh
Has anybody else come across Climeworks and especially the Orca plant?

It seems they actually are pulling CO2 out of the atmosphere and with some help from Carbfix are entombing it as stone.

https://climeworks.com/
https://climeworks.com/roadmap/orca
https://www.carbfix.com/

It appears to be real, and you can subscribe as an individual, although a few individual billionaires would no doubt be better. :bigsmile: I'm thinking of signing up so what does the team think?

The one problem I can see at the moment is that it is expensive :cry: though they do have pretty graphs showing the cost coming down?]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292740#Comment_292740 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292740#Comment_292740 Sat, 30 Oct 2021 21:50:33 +0100 WillInAberdeen
The bigger issue is that it consumes more energy to capture very dilute CO2 from the air, than it does to capture more concentrated CO2 from the exhaust of (say) a biomass power station or a cement works. That's the pesky 2nd law of thermodynamics again, which is not going to change. If it were in the UK at the moment, consuming that much energy would create nearly as much CO2 as it captures, though our electricity supply is decarbonising.

The pilot plant is somewhere in Iceland where (apparently) there's a surplus of carbon-free heat and electricity. In future that energy might be useful for something else, like a data centre or exporting hydrogen. Doesn't matter where in the world the CO2 is captured, so long as it's somewhere with a genuine, large-enough surplus of carbon-free energy, an amenable public, and suitable geology.

At the moment we need all the options we can get, so no technology is bad per se, every technology needs support through its development phase.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292741#Comment_292741 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292741#Comment_292741 Sat, 30 Oct 2021 22:17:14 +0100 fostertom Posted By: WillInAberdeenIn future that energy might be useful for something else, like a data centre or exporting hydrogenThis is an argument that often comes up around novel uses of renewable energy. Of course it's true but I think its emphasis is unhelpfully misdirected.

It's usually used to cast doubt on some novel use of renewable energy, or at least flagged as a snag or caution. Using renewable energy for bitcoin mining is a prime example - the mining 'community' boasts of progress in decarbonising - if a mining 'farm' uses renewable, then it's OK, no longer a climate disaster. The anti-mining 'community' points to all the existing (therefore more worthy/vital) things that could be decarbonised if mining wasn't swallowing so much renewable. The miners say that much renewable capacity wouldn't have been created it they (the miners) weren't there to create demand - especially in the case of miner-dedicated wind farms.

Every novel use of renewable gets this treatment. But surely the point is, that once again 'the market' can't be relied on to make optimum allocation decisions - how much should be invested in renewables, and what it should be used for, to best possible climate effect. The assumption is that human society, advised by science, can't rationally and wisely simply make such decisions - so it has to be left to some 'hidden hand', which no-one can actually locate or even (like dark matter) deduce the properties of.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292744#Comment_292744 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292744#Comment_292744 Sat, 30 Oct 2021 22:54:16 +0100 djh Posted By: WillInAberdeenThe bigger issue is that it consumes more energy to capture very dilute CO2 from the air, than it does to capture more concentrated CO2 from the exhaust of (say) a biomass power station or a cement works.
Well yes but that's a truism. If the problem to be solved is removing CO2 from the atmosphere then no amount of carbon capture at exhausts is going to solve it. And I'd argue we do need to capture CO2 from the atmosphere AS WELL AS capture it from as many exhausts as possible.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292745#Comment_292745 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292745#Comment_292745 Sun, 31 Oct 2021 01:14:21 +0000 WillInAberdeen
For scale:
Average electricity usage in Europe, all sources: 300 GW
Power station CCS: 300 kWh per t

@Tom,
Lots of people (including some scientific advisors!) have struggled with that allocation problem (as you know) and tried all sorts of measures of marginal intensity and EROEI to show whether the carbon or energy consumed by something is 'a lot' or 'not much'. Eventually it comes down to "who else could have used that energy better?" which is opinion.

For example, my supplier claims they only sell me renewable electricity, so is it ok for me to mine bitcoins all night with my windows open and all the lights and heaters on, thus creating demand for renewable generators? Most people would say that's not ok, because we know that the energy I'd use, although renewable, is a limited resource that would be useful for someone else, and it wouldn't hurt me to conserve it.

But what if I lived in a region where more renewable electricity is being generated than the people living there can use? (I do, btw). Still need to conserve it, say most people, so the surplus can be used to displace emissions that would have happened elsewhere.

But what about long into the future, when all energy everywhere will be zero carbon? Well then it might be ok for me to use lots of it, as I wouldn't be depriving anyone else.


@DJH, Undoubtedly net CO2 removal is needed - like I said, we need all the options we can get. If there's a choice between closing a lot of fossil power stations early, versus keeping them open so there's spare power for this, then I'd rather use fewer kWh per t to capture concentrated chimney CO2 first, ideally from biomass power stations. AS WELL AS maturing this technology ready for wider deployment later when those GW might become available.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292779#Comment_292779 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292779#Comment_292779 Mon, 01 Nov 2021 13:34:58 +0000 SimonD Posted By: WillInAberdeenideally from biomass power stations

I have to say I'm bemused by this. Why would you prefer biomass for our countries when we have to rely on massive imports from Canada, the US and EU and then the energy density isn't that great?

Some perspectives suggest it's even dirtier than coal and questionably sustainable. I hate to say it but if carbon capture is actually effective and super efficient CHP powerstations can be built, then considered at the system level, coal could actually be preferrable in our geographical context. It would also be cheaper and allow the forests to maintain greater levels of carbon sequestration. Some would even suggest nuclear is preferrable, environmentally, economically, and from a functional energy system perspective.

I'm not saying I've bought into this particularly view, just that I think solutions are still up for debate as we learn more.

Here's is a paper I found interesting that's recently been translated into English taking a critical look at Sweden's energy policy (https://www.klimatkarusellen.se/post/energy-and-politics-in-the-wake-of-the-climate-debate - link to the pdf is just below the Swedish text in the blog). This paper references some critical economic analysis by Gordon Hughes looking at UK windpower installation - it doesn't make for pleasant reading if you're planning to invest in the technology (https://www.ref.org.uk/Files/performance-wind-power-uk.pdf). He talks through his work in this youtube video - https://youtu.be/x5mXkYcuzWs]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292781#Comment_292781 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292781#Comment_292781 Mon, 01 Nov 2021 14:04:45 +0000 fostertom Posted By: WillInAberdeen
But what about long into the future, when all energy everywhere will be zero carbon? Well then it might be ok for me to use lots of it, as I wouldn't be depriving anyone else.Yes, hopefully that's the future. I'd hope that
Posted By: fostertomhuman society, advised by science, [can] rationally and wisely simply make such decisions
rather than leaving it to the 'hidden hand', a theory which gives individuals and corporations license to do whatever they feel like.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292784#Comment_292784 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292784#Comment_292784 Mon, 01 Nov 2021 14:42:43 +0000 WillInAberdeen
So it's like Direct Air Capture, except it produces electricity instead of consuming lots of it.

But quite agree about the biodiversity concerns and the doubtful claims about present day non-CCS biomass neutrality over a short timeframe. Would really need to be done with a short-rotation UK-grown fuel such as SRC willow, grown on non-food land.

Coal = bad idea, if only because of the methane that gets released from coal strata when mined.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292787#Comment_292787 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292787#Comment_292787 Mon, 01 Nov 2021 15:35:34 +0000 djh https://en.klimatkarusellen.se/post/energy-and-politics-in-the-wake-of-the-climate-debate

I think there's something screwed up in the site's localisation and javascript handling. The key is to select Swedish language for the original article. Unfortunately they then hide the URL of the PDF so I can't give a direct link to that.

SimonD claimed https://www.klimatkarusellen.se/post/energy-and-politics-in-the-wake-of-the-climate-debate would show something interesting. But it actually shows:

We Couldn’t Find This Page
Check out some of the other great posts in this blog.

and clicking on that button reveals

No posts published in this language yet
Stay tuned...

But if you start instead at

https://www.klimatkarusellen.se/post/energy-and-politics-in-the-wake-of-the-climate-debate

Then you get a Swedish blog entry where at the end is a link to PerFahlen uppdaterad.pdf

which is a 68 page mixed English-Swedish document where it seems most of it can be read in English.]]> Carbon Capture and Storage http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292791#Comment_292791 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16160&Focus=292791#Comment_292791 Mon, 01 Nov 2021 16:17:37 +0000 djh Posted By: fostertom
Posted By: WillInAberdeen
But what about long into the future, when all energy everywhere will be zero carbon? Well then it might be ok for me to use lots of it, as I wouldn't be depriving anyone else.
Yes, hopefully that's the future. I'd hope that
... energy will be too cheap to meter? :devil:

I think when all energy is gained from orbital solar collectors and everything is manufactured up there from asteroids and brought down on the space elevator (or fusion-powered shuttles) then how much you consume may no longer be so important, but until then ...

Oh and in that scenario I expect we'll have some other major problems to address.

edit: There's a review of the state of fusion as viewed by companies developing it at https://www.fusionindustryassociation.org/about-fusion-industry]]>