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Heating and cooling: Dumping hot water

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    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2016
     
    This is a hotel situiation,

    Monster HW system, loads of outlets.

    As it took too long for HW to get to taps someone installed solenoid valves in each services rooms associated with the any HW outlets and web linked them.

    This is the regime, 5:30 dump hot water to drain through all of them for 20 mins, then every half hour dump hot water to drain for five mins until 11:30, similar in the evening


    How widespread is this practice? What are we up against here.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2016
     
    Why not send the water back to the bottom of the hot water tank, but that would have needed more pipework installed along with a pump.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2016 edited
     
    Posted By: tonyWhat are we up against here.


    rank ignorance, I'd say :shocked:

    =========
    Posted By: ringibut that would have needed more pipework installed along with a pump.


    Yes, but it is the correct way to do it !

    "A hot water plumbing loop shifts perception back to what it should be – less about money and more about saving our precious environment!"
    www.clearchain.com/blog/posts/explaining-the-concept-of-a-hot-water-plumbing-loop

    gg
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2016
     
    yes!!
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2016
     
    yes!!

    they want cheap fix, no capital spend

    what happens when a solenoid fails....
  6.  
    How is the hot water heated- if solar that is already bought then maybe not worth changing, if however it is heated by bought in fuel then a cost analysis, ROI etc. is needed to see if it is worth doing something. If it ain't broke then why fix it - it will probably come down to the cost of being more energy efficient and / or green
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2016
     
    This setup is likely to be against the water regs so not legal.

    If you don't have a water meter, I think the water company would be interested in knowing about this setup.

    If they do have a water meter, what is the water costing them.....
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2016
     
    Peanuts compared to the heat they are loosing, it is local authority owned and managed.

    Hot water is heated by wood pellets til the run out 80t per week then oil. They are getting big RHI payments.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2016
     
    I expect that the heat usage on the RHI meter results in payments that are a lot more then the cost of the wood pellets.

    Maybe it is time to tip of a local news paper, and get them to do a freedom of information request about it.....
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2016
     
    Yes, or national one.

    Headline in mind already, "RHI encourages waste"
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2016
     
    RHI directly incentivises the production of as much 'renewable' output as possible - we knew that already.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2016
     
    But it's good (or bad, depending how you look at it) to have a blatant real-world example.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2016
     
    Ho yes - great idea to whip up a national scandal!
    • CommentAuthorbxman
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    simply only one word for it Criminal

    what area of the country are you tony ?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    It is not in my area, but south coast ish
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016 edited
     
    trying to think strategically about this, off top of head, first and foremost, it might not be wise, for example, to have Tony (the intervenor...) ratting on his client (the Owner / hotel group...) to the local rag... :bigsmile:
    (sort-of professional discretion...).

    Maybe the Owner did not actually decide on the HW strategy - perhaps he is not aware how it was set up by the previous installer/contractor... "Maybe the owner got ripped-off by a fly-by-night, could-not-give-a-toss plumber".

    Perhaps the Owner's Responsible Person might be in the know ? (it would be shocking if he were NOT, having (presumably...) received the installation and signed off the invoice...).

    In which case it might be an idea for Tony to mention it casually to him ?
    "this is not right, you are wasting water and power" etc.

    If they have got a 100 hotels up and down the land, it could be "significant information"

    As mentioned previous, the local authority might be interested in this situation...

    However, I suspect that professional ethics might also have a say somewhere in the matter... "Priveleged Knowledge" vs due diligence ?

    I've no idea really, just trying to throw out some ideas ...

    A letter to WHICH magazine might be a start...

    gg
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    Posted By: gyrogear
    If they have got a 100 hotels up and down the land, it could be "significant information"

    As mentioned previous, the local authority might be interested in this situation...


    Perhaps you missed the bit where tony stated:
    Posted By: tony...it is local authority owned and managed.


    Perhaps a "hostel" rather than a "hotel"?
    • CommentAuthorbxman
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    A random map reference by any chance?
  19.  
    Whilst this is an example of very bad practice - but if the system is not up for renewal or overhaul then the only chance of getting anything done will be to show that it would be cheaper to change it than keep it. And given it's LA you would probably need to have a (very) short ROI. Otherwise I suspect you would get the answer 'If it ain't broke then why fix it'
    And with the fuel usage linked to RHI getting a financial justification to change the system will be difficult I suspect.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    Posted By: tonyThis is the regime, 5:30 dump hot water to drain through all of them for 20 mins,
    Do they not at least have a thermostat to cut off the solenoid once the hot water has reached the tee-off point?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    Posted By: Ed Davies
    Posted By: tonyThis is the regime, 5:30 dump hot water to drain through all of them for 20 mins,
    Do they not at least have a thermostat to cut off the solenoid once the hot water has reached the tee-off point?

    That would reduce their RHI payments ... :devil:
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    No thermostat.

    They cant sped capital on it happy with monthly charges, very odd situiation
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    If you can measure the hot water wasted you can calculate the cost of this vs a secondary loop.
    • CommentAuthorbxman
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    Every litre of water run to waste will have been through the boiler and been heated that is for certain.



    What a waste

    How much Co2 will have been produced and un-necessarily be released into the atmosphere ?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    None because they use wood chips and so it is zero carbon:confused:
    • CommentAuthorbxman
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    So you think you can bun wood without it releasing Carbon dioxide Think again .
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    Not me no it certainly is not me and most here know it, it is the government and the EU and others that talk about burning wood nd biomass as a zero carbon activity.
    • CommentAuthorbxman
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    Not just CO2 wood produces an large number of polluting by-products as well.

    In a just world the offenders should have their RHI payments confiscated
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    I completely agree
    • CommentAuthorbxman
    • CommentTimeApr 21st 2016
     
    So let us nail the thoughtless bastards

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