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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthormalakoffee
    • CommentTimeDec 24th 2014
     
    The building of an extension onto my bungalow is in progress.

    The new walls are now up near roof level, but I am planning to disengage with this builder - I don't want them extending the original roof out over the extension having seen blunders with the walls.

    The walls are brick - 100mm cavity full-fill rockwool : 100mm Celcon block . . .

    The builders have wandered off for their Xmas holiday with strips of DPM covering the top of cavity wall
    Cavity closers are inserted in the verticals. They did not know at that point that I was calling a halt with them.

    There may be a long delay of some weeks before I can get roofers in to do their stuff and protect those new walls.

    It has occurred to me that I might need to protect vertical blockwork walls from the rain. Possibly by using DPM.
    ( The builders left some batten here for some unknown purpose, but they haven't used it. Perhaps this was to batten DPM onto the blockwork as weather protection ?? )
  1.  
    I am no lawyer but If I were you I would not touch their work in any way.

    At least not until you have informed them of your concerns and asked them to rectify - including any weather protection you feel is necessary.

    Otherwise they may say that you have contributed in same way to the perceived problems/issues and grey the waters should this become a legal dispute.

    If they refuse or ignore you then you will have a legitimate reason to intervene yourself (probably)

    Always better to try and resolve amicably though - is that not possible?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 24th 2014
     
    scaffold planks work well, try to stop rain going into the cavity insulation, how wide was the dpc? I used to trap the bags that the insulation came in under the plank, bricks on the outside wall side which should be lower.

    Move any planks near the walls at scaffold level away to avoid splashing
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeDec 24th 2014
     
    Posted By: malakoffeehaving seen blunders with the walls.
    You talk of blunders with the walls, might be worth elaborating, a blunder to one person could be a normal trades practice to another, so if you intend to get rid of the builder you may need to be sure you wont leave yourself open to a counter claim of some sort.
    • CommentAuthormalakoffee
    • CommentTimeDec 24th 2014
     
    Blunders with the walls :

    The Building Control plan specifies >> Ancon Wall starter system fitted with debonding sleeves : mastic seal with epdm backing strip joint.
    They used individual debonding ties instead and then packed the wall-height vertical joints with mortar, ( hydraulic lime mortar ).
    When I realised the significance of this w.r.t. Building Control checks and that these joints were not fully debonded - would almost certainly crack, I requested that they rectify.

    Mortar now removed and compressible strips now in place awaiting finishing with a good depth of mastic.

    Builder admits that they should just have used the specified wall starter kits to start with . . . . . . < rude acronym removed >


    I'm sure we all know that full-cavity fill has to be de-risked as much as possible by keeping the inner face of the brickwork reasonably clean and free of traps for penetrating rain.
    I attach a phot of a bucket full of mortar overhangs and ledges that I managed to hook off the inside - always hidden by the insulation bats.
    Access was limited, so this bucket-load is a sample.

    What do you think ??


    :confused:
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeDec 24th 2014
     
    ... typical for UK builders...?:cry:
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeDec 24th 2014
     
    So the next question is will the next builder be any better?, or do you work with the current one, now he knows you are on his case?
    • CommentAuthormalakoffee
    • CommentTimeDec 24th 2014 edited
     
    Triassic said >>
    So the next question is will the next builder be any better?, or do you work with the current one, now he knows you are on his case? <<

    Here is the problem :
    This builder came highly recommended - he did just about all of brickwork for a friend's new build.
    In addition, he did a lot of de facto project management on that house without being asked.
    My friend was very interested in keeping tabs on the quality of his build and was pleased with everything that he checked.

    Four years later the builder is the boss of his company, using teams of self-employed tradesmen to do the actual work.
    His main project at the moment appears to be involvement in a commercial build for a certain discount supermarket.
    I have no doubt where his main focus is.

    I have to say that I was rather bewildered on the first day of my build when four blokes who I had never seen before just wandered up the drive.
    The boss turned up for one half day of the build and did a couple of hours bricklaying. The inner brick faces were noticeably visible and clean for that brief period.

    Anyhow, I don't intend to let another bunch of the builder's mates start chopping in to the existing roof.
    The integrity of the existing house is then at risk.

    My confidence is somewhat dented.
    :sad:
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeDec 24th 2014
     
    I see what Mike George is saying but I don't think that covering the exposed cavity and walls with some DPM and weighting down with bricks and/or scaffolding planks would be a problem. I would certainly do that even if the builders were top notch. If you are worried you could always whip it off again before they arrive on the 5th January or whenever? What the eye doesn't see etc.....
    • CommentAuthormalakoffee
    • CommentTimeDec 24th 2014 edited
     
    It is not the strips of DPM on the top of the wall that I am asking about - but thanks for the advice.

    I'm really asking if in longer term I should consider protecting the exposed VERTICAL faces of the blockwork if there is no roof over for a number of weeks. The blocks appear to be very porous.

    I will ask the builder his opinion, but he now knows that he won't be extending the roof so I'm not sure if he will take any further interest in the walls.

    PS. I am actively maintaining the protection on top. More bricks on top are definitely necessary as is trimming the DPM strips to prevent excessive flapping and pulling of the anchor bricks. Not just reasonable, but absolutely necessary, especially as it is the Xmas holiday period.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeDec 24th 2014 edited
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: malakoffee</cite>
    I'm really asking if in longer term I should consider protecting the exposed VERTICAL faces of the blockwork if there is no roof over for a number of weeks. The blocks appear to be very porous.


    I've just completed a sunroom/conservatory addition to my home. For the whole of last winter and spring it was covered with tarps. They are cheap enough, even the heavy duty ones and they will always come in handy, so IMO don't hesitate wrap the lot.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 24th 2014
     
    Blocks will be OK, think how many thousands of houses have been built lots in the winter.
    • CommentAuthormalakoffee
    • CommentTimeDec 25th 2014
     
    Thanks for all these helpful views and suggestions.

    Planks would be better on top.

    Tony - thanks for the blocks-will-be-ok judgement. I'm still a bit concerned that the insulation will get wet via the porous blockwork.

    Owlman - Belt & braces, I'll take a view on how long the current structure will be exposed and get some big tarps if more than 6 weeks.
  2.  
    Posted By: malakoffee'm still a bit concerned that the insulation will get wet via the porous blockwork.


    Full fill rockwool is designed to get wet. It shouldn't be a problem for any of the structure as built to get wet really. If it was timber frame then that would be a very different story.
  3.  
    Posted By: malakoffeeThis builder came highly recommended - he did just about all of brickwork for a friend's new build.
    In addition, he did a lot of de facto project management on that house without being asked.
    My friend was very interested in keeping tabs on the quality of his build and was pleased with everything that he checked.

    Sounds like a good builder

    Posted By: malakoffeeFour years later the builder is the boss of his company,

    Normal progression for someone looking for advancement

    Posted By: malakoffeeusing teams of self-employed tradesmen to do the actual work.

    And there's the problem
    Sorry if it's stating the obvious
    But what I have found is that you have to watch what is happening from the beginning and make sure that all is done properly, when you see bad workmanship then complain immediately and ensure it is put right, I have found that it's not long before the builders do it right first time because they don't like redoing their work. The trouble is that it takes time and you need to be around when they start, difficult if you have to go to work or alike
    • CommentAuthormalakoffee
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2014
     
    At the age of nearly 60 this is my first close encounter with builders.

    I have learnt some hard lesson :-
    I was the only agent of quality control on the build.
    I should have stepped-in as soon as the first clues emerged.

    However, it took me couple of days to evaluate the situation :-
    No foreman or leader to the team.
    Nobody looking out for health & safety or quality control.
    I wasn't being consulted or informed about . . . . anything really . . . hence them mucking up the debonding . . .
    Reactive management = I had to complain to the ( offsite ) builder, who would then phone the workers and try to modify or fix.

    Anyhow, now I have received an invoice ( as requested ) for the work to date.
    The amount is not unreasonable - by my naive judgement.
    There is VAT component.
    There is no VAT registration number.

    I am minded to ask to see the company VAT Registration Certificate.
    What would you do ??
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2014
     
    It is illegal to charge VAT if not registered, as for it.
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: willie.macleod
    Posted By: malakoffee'm still a bit concerned that the insulation will get wet via the porous blockwork.


    Full fill rockwool is designed to get wet. It shouldn't be a problem for any of the structure as built to get wet really. If it was timber frame then that would be a very different story.


    Not heard that one Willie. Is it something Rockwool are saying?

    Water will certainly change the insulation value hugely making it virtually useless. I have also yet to see a flexibe bat that will not slump if in the air in it is replaced with water.
  4.  
    Hi Mike

    Yes if the bat fills with water then it will be useless, however if it is proper full fill insulation then the bats shouldn't be absorbing water, the fibres should have been treated with silicone or similar to prevent this. BBA allow full fill rockwool to bridge DPC so they don't reckon it transmits or absorbs too much water.

    Not that the OP should get too complacent - the bucket of snots would suggest that the greatest care hasn't been taken and if the full fill isn't actually properly fitted and there are gaps or even more snots then the water will transmit from one leaf to another via them. And I personally would have scaffold boards on top of the wall, but I wouldn't stress too much about the wall deteriorating before my eyes.
    • CommentAuthormalakoffee
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2014 edited
     
    Another vote for planks on top then - thanks.

    I have seen rockwool in two conditions when wet :-
    1) Surface wetting and still resisting water penetration.

    2) The fibre matrix completely soaked where water can be freely squeezed from it.
    When in a confined space, without airflow, it cannot dry out and will bridge damp to surrounding materials.

    I'm looking to avoid ( and minimise the risk of ) the later.

    The snots, ledges and intrusions are extensive. The bucket-load was all I could reach.
    My plan is to treat the new wall with silicone treatment next autumn - after the long, hot summer :shocked: - and carry this on as a regular maintenance task.
    When I get fed up with that I'll have it tile hung or covered with EWI.
    Not an impressive start for a new wall.
    After the winter storms of 2013/14 one might have thought that the building industry would be aware.
    It would seem that some part of it wants to continue with shoddy workmanship.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2014
     
    Silicone would not in my opinion be a positive move. It is important that moisture can breathe out of the wall outwards
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2014
     
    Posted By: tonySilicone would not in my opinion be a positive move. It is important that moisture can breathe out of the wall outwards


    Tony - there are waterproofing products that allow masonry to "breathe" e.g. Stormdry, Smartseal. Not cheap though!
    • CommentAuthormalakoffee
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2014
     
    Jeff B - thanks for identifying those breathable waterproofing products. Best to get it right first time and not make the situation worse.

    The context of all of the above is that I was living in my late mother's house during those winter storms 13/14.
    The house was build in 2003 by a building company with a decent reputation. ( And only months outside of the NHBC guarantee - for what that is worth . . . . )

    It leaked !
    • CommentAuthorsquirrel
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2014
     
    I'm still trying to understand why you want to put an additional waterproofing course on a new brick wall (once the roof is on). Experience shows that it'll be ok for about 200-300 years at last as it is. Or am I missing something?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 29th 2014
     
    I wouldn't either, think how many houses there are built out of bricks in the UK without problems.
    • CommentAuthormalakoffee
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2014 edited
     
    The dodgy builders have created the new wall with little or no regard to a known risk factor for cavity walls with full-fill rockwool -type insulation :-
    The cavity-side face of the brickwork has extensive mortar ledges, overhangs and intrusions.

    This MAY trap penetrating water in extreme weather instead of letting gravity assist it down the inner face of the brickwork.

    I don't have direct evidence whether they cleared mortar from the wall ties, but I think it is reasonable to assume that they did not bother.

    I'd be very happy to be persuaded that I'm over-reacting.

    Anyhow I have called in a local surveyor to evaluate to situation and help me to plan forwards.

    Attached schematic is borrowed from a commercial website, but corresponds others from non-biased sources.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2014
     
    Here is one of my house, little bits picked out before next lot of insulation, I wouldn't let anyone else place insulation.
    • CommentAuthormalakoffee
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2014 edited
     
    Now that is what I call a WIDE cavity.

    Tony >> I wouldn't let anyone else place the insulation. <<

    My summary advice to anyone else having a full-fill wall would be DON'T unless . . . .
    - You trust the bricklayer(s) completely OR
    - You are familiar with managing bricklayers and can constantly monitor the construction OR
    - You are doing the brick-laying yourself.

    The big risks with full-fill are :-
    - You have no free cavity as a default weatherbreak OR to permit inspection of the brickwork OR to permit any rectification activity.
    - The bricklayers have an opportunity to swiftly hide shoddy work and/or that they don't actually understand the additional quality requirements for full-fill construction.

    In the attached you cannot see many mortar problems because they are mainly hidden under the insulation. Strangely enough the brickwork that is visible is all pretty clean. One might assume that this is not accidental.
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2014
     
    I was wondering if you could remove the insulation and using a long scrapper and knock off the mortar snorts, these could then be removed by cutting a number of holes in the blockwork at the base of the wall. Once you are satisfied with the cleanliness the cavity, New insulation could then be blown in.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeDec 30th 2014
     
    Tony,

    Why did you not offset the 3 layers of insulation, to reduce risk of gaps?
   
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