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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
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    • CommentAuthorltaylor88
    • CommentTimeJun 3rd 2016
     
    Hi I'm new to the forum but have read a lot of posts already. We have just bought a good sized 3 bed bungalow in need of refurbishment and new heat system as it has storage heaters.

    We have just installed a Wood burning back boiler with 7.kw to water 4.5 to room (more on coal) the property already benefits from a Solar thermal panel on the roof which I have been plesently surprised by as I thought Id be ripping it off. and we later plan to fit oil as a backup when funds allow.

    The solar is currently as it was installed just to a single coil 120ltr tank with immersion. its in a stupid place so we want to move it.

    we are at the point we want to hook the stove up to the new rads but im at point where I need to chose a system. I had been planning using a netralizer (dunsley or systemlink) but there is very little info on them and what info on forums there is always seem to have some saying saying "Why not fit a Thermal Store". So.... I have been looking at thermal stores instead. we have a budget of around a £1000 for the store. I have found one thats fits the bill at a good price from a company that sounds like popperpylinders.co.uk they have very good reviews on there normal cylinders. It is a oven vented store with two boiler inputs(direct), Heating direct. Indirect solar and mains indirect hot water via coil rather than heatX(as we have very hard water)

    Our stove is in the front room on a central single chimney. and If I go with the TS I would like to put it in the loft directly above the stove. on an open vented system

    Do you recommend integral header tank?
    Can I take just two feeds from stove to TS ( ie Stove vent from TS)
    Is a 10% heat leak ok on the stove
    Will a 250 ltr give us decent hot water supply or should we go 300?

    any working schematics for my system would be appreciated.

    Sorry for babbling on.
    • CommentAuthorSimonMF
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2016
     
    Insulation should be the first concern IMHO
    • CommentAuthorsmudger
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2016
     
    Can we have a 'sticky' which says insulate as a priority so it doesn't keep popping up? It doesn't answer OP's question. Insulating properly is neither easy nor cheap (as I know...). He needs heat, he needs hot water....

    My penny's worth of thinking as I have similar issues:
    1. thermal store - larger the better to make use of solar / stove, so if you have space go with 300 (if not larger....)
    2. separate hw from heating hot water - ring fences your hws, so could reuse your 120l tank (its not the largest and depends on your occupancy and willingness to 'wait' if it runs out or if you shower / bath).
    3. 250/300l wont be enough to 'heat your house' in the morning so need to think about what you do in mornings when not lighting stove. Oil burner in future could be used am / stove pm.
    4. It has been suggested that TS are expensive 'cylinders'. Certainly the more 'connections' the more expensive they are. Criticism is mixing of water and ending up with tankful of lukewarm water. Insulation of the TS is key so design for this (space).
    5. need to 'design' system for two / possibly three operations ie summer, autumn/spring and winter. Autumn / spring in my mind is more difficult - might need a bit more heat but not yet fully committed to running the stove....Personally I have kept the storage heaters (updated where needed to Quantum etc) as my background heat (running on E10) for 7/8 months of the year, leaving stove for 'winter'. (I personally think E10 electricity is 'greener' than regressing to installing an oil system - my opinion!).
    6. Another factor is actual stove performance / operation and quality of fuel ie you could over or under produce 'heat'

    Methinks key is to find a Hetas engineer willing and capable to design the whole system and design some contingencies for adapting / altering once in use as you figure out how to use it - its not as simple as installing a gch system by any means.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2016 edited
     
    Back to basics first.
    You need to know how much hot water you use, and how much your heating load is. That is a case of measurement.
    Then you need to start looking at the best way of distributing that energy, DHW and space heating need to be considered seperately, they do different things, at different temperatures and at different times i.e. DHW is about 40-50°C delivered for a short period of time, but a large volume and then discarded. Space heating is, depending on delivery, some where between 35-70°C i.e. UFH or conventional radiators, and then the transfer fluid is recirculated via a heat exchanger to be reheated.

    All along the way you have to think of system losses. You ask if 10% is acceptable. Hard to tell, it sounds low, but that depends on how it is measured, at what temperature, what time periods. You can, for example, just look at DHW and fill a vessel with hot water, and then pour it out immediately, the losses will be very low, or you can heat one up to the maximum temperature it will stand, not use any DWH for 23 hours and then use all the hot water. You will get very different results.

    As you have a solar thermal system fitted, you ideally need to start the day with a cold store, let it heat up during the day, and when it gets to maximum temperature, use it all, then let it start to reheat. Rather weather/season dependant and the maximum achievable temperature will vary, as well as the losses, but that is the nature of ST. Why it is generally cheaper and easier to use photovoltaics, but that is for another essay.

    Now space heating is generally at a lower energy delivery rate, or wattage (you can work that out from your radiator area and temperature differences) even if the total energy delivered is greater than for DHW. Energy (kWh or joules) is not the same as power (watts or joules per second), try not to get them confused and use them in the appropriate places, though we all often make mistakes with them. So you have a heat source (the smoky and smelly, labour intensive, expensive to run wood burner, a subject for another essay, or 1000+ post on here) that can deliver energy relatively quickly 7 kW to water. So how fast can that heat the water for bathing? to keep the numbers simple, I shall assume each person need 100 lt of water at 40°C delivered. The incoming cold mains water will be somewhere between 4°C and 18°C over the year.
    1 kg of water takes 0.00117 kWh of energy per degree kelvin increase in temperature. So 100 kg (100 litres) raised from 4°C to 40°C takes 4.2 kWh, from 18° to 40°C it takes 2.6 kWh. The stove delivers at 7 kW.
    kWh / kW = h (or time).
    So 4.2 [kWh] / 7 [kW] = 0.6 h (or about 40 minutes), 2.6 [kWh] / 7 [kW] = 0.4 h (or 25 minutes). So somewhere around half an hour burn time per person per day on average (not strictly true as there is an initial warm up and final cool down times from the stove and you may have differing residual temperatures in the store).
    So for two people, you could just get away with a 200 lt thermal store that is at a mean temperature of 40°C. But it is generally kept higher than this for many reasons, mainly the fear of health issues and the fact that a wood burner delivers at a higher temperature. So your store may well be at mean temperature of 80°C initially, or enough for 4 people. But that will increase the burn time by two.

    Now let assume that you need somewhere between 5 and 50 kWh/day for space heating. Your heat source, if it is not contributing to DHW will deliver at total of 11.5 kW (7 kW to water, 4.5 kW to room).
    So 5 [kWh] / 11.5 kW = 0.43 h or 26 minutes, at 50 kWh heat load, 4.3 h or 260 minutes.

    So how big does a thermal store need to be to deliver the the best, median and worse case scenarios.
    If we assume that there is a 20°C temp difference between the flow and return temperatures, then:
    5 [kWh] / (0.00117 [kWh] x 20 [°C]) = 213 lt, 50 [kWh] / (0.00117 [kWh] x 20 [°C]) = 2,136 lt
    The median heat load will be 22.5 [kWh] / (0.00117 [kWh] x 20 [°C]) = 962 lt

    You need to then add on the sizes for DHW, so another 200 lt, and then account for the losses, say another 20% in total.
    So somewhere between 500 lt and 2,800 lt, with a median of 1,394 lt.

    That is not the complete story though, as you can, on the coldest days keep running the heat source for longer, in effect replacing the house losses as you go. This will be in direct proportion, so double the burn time, halve the store size.
    So taking the worse case scenario of 50 kWh/day and doubling your burn time from 4.3 h to 8.6 h will reduce the store size to 1,521 lt, your median will be 680 lt.

    The smallest heat load is really irrelevant as if you just needed 5 kW/day, you would just use a fan heater, or accept you are a bit chilly in the morning.

    There are other alternatives, using direct electrical heating for the DHW, this can be an modulating inline heater that can take advantage of any residual heat in the store from the ST system (what I would do), or use a combination boiler that just heats what you need, when you need it.

    Really comes down to knowing what you need and when (so do some measuring now), how much room you have, and how much you want to spend.
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2016
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaBack to basics first.
    You need to know how much hot water you use, and how much your heating load is. That is a case of measurement.


    Good Post
    +1

    gg
  1.  
    Posted By: gyrogearGood Post
    +1

    +1 and if we are mentioning stickys or thinking about piller threads or core posts or what have you this is the sort of thing people need to see first, before they even know enough to know they need to ask a question.
    • CommentAuthorFred56
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2016
     
    In his post Steamy mentions "inline modulating heaters". Can anyone help me identify some please as I have a similar plan for my kitchen but all of the instantaneous heaters I have found are non modulating and require cold feed.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2016 edited
     
    Here is one, no experience of it:
    http://www.gotankless.com/stiebel-eltron-DHC-E-series-tankless.html

    You can always hunt down our old mate JSHarris over at buildhub.org.uk, he has researched them a fair bit and has one fitted.

    The things to make sure is that it can accept hot water as the input, and that it is big enough for your needs i.e what may be large enough when the incoming water is at 40°C may not be when the incoming is at 20°C.
    A second thing to remember is that they are really there to just lift the preheated water up by a few degrees, they are not, in this configuration, there to be the main heater, so knowing your desired flow rate is helpful.
    • CommentAuthorGotanewlife
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2016 edited
     
    I have a plan to buy one of these (for me the Infinity11e)

    http://www.rinnaiuk.com/files/9514/4283/3885/Rinnai_Domestic_Brochure.pdf
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeJul 25th 2016
     
    +1 for the above. Excellent pieces of kit, well made, plug and play, straight out of the box. :cool:
    • CommentAuthorFred56
    • CommentTimeJul 25th 2016
     
    Steamy, thanks that looks just the thing. I think I will run the kitchen at 6l per minute. The idea is to reduce the lag between water leaving the heatstore and hitting the tap. On my last project I used 10mm individual feeds from a manifold very close to the heat source (not my idea but taken from AECB). With the pressure set at 1.5 bar the response was fine but they were to wash basin and hand rinse so 3.5 litre per minute was OK. The kitchen needs a better flow rate so used 15mm. For my latest project , at 6l it will take about 20 seconds to get there. My heatstore is going to be E7 with a solar coil in case I can ever justify the investment.

    Sorry OP, ought not to hijack your thread.

    Gotanewlife. Thanks. I think you proposed this early in my deliberations. I like the idea but the price and install costs stopped me abruptly. I know they work well because most caravans have similar units.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 25th 2016
     
    Posted By: Fred56My heatstore is going to be E7 with a solar coil in case I can ever justify the investment.
    Right, ditch the idea of solar thermal and spend the same amount of money (plus what you save on the extra coil) and get some PV fitted. Even a small 1.5 or 2 kWp system is almost certainly going to be better. It can also contribute to the running of the inline heater during the day.
    • CommentAuthorcjard
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
     
    @gotanewlife - Rinnai tankless inline water heaters, a.k.a "a combi boiler" ??
    • CommentAuthorJonG
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
     
    As an alternative to the Rinnai option, Intergas boilers (which are technically a combi), can be set up as a water heater alone, because unlike many combis they do not have to dump excess heat from the HEX back into the heating circs after a hot water delivery, they have no plate either which again requires connections to heating circs.

    The main block contains heating pipework and a hot water coil, the parameters can be changed to set the boiler up as a combi/system boiler or water heater to suit.

    Their Rapid variant is available at around £565 incl flue and jig.
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
     
    @JonG, can the Intergas take (pre)heated inflow and modulate their output to meet a pre-set DHW temp? Also do they have a LPG version?
    Thanks:smile:
  2.  
    I was going to fit the 11e myself (illegally obviously) but it is the external variant and I already fitted 2 gas hobs and 2 gas ovens myself. Over here the 11e is eqiv of £460. None of this helpful I realise! Unless you have done some plumbing before and get the external version......
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016 edited
     
    Does the OP (who seems to have vanished) have gas, does Fred have gas, I know I don't. So why we talking about gas boilers?
    • CommentAuthorGotanewlife
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016 edited
     
    If we had e mail alerts, the OP would be back!

    Posted By: SteamyTeaSo why we talking about gas boilers?
    25kg bottles of gas can provide an awful lot of HW by taking
    Posted By: SteamyTeaadvantage of any residual heat in the store from the ST system
    • CommentAuthorJonG
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
     
    Hi Daryl, yes it can take a pre-heat from solar/solar PV thermal store etc. and can be converted to LPG simply by changing the disc in the gas valve.

    The HW can be set to your desired temp and the power input is also adjustable if you want to slow down the heating process, a pre-heat facility is also embedded on the software, not that we recommend anyone use it.
    • CommentAuthorFred56
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
     
    Steamy. No don't have gas.
    There is no mains gas in this bit of Cornwall and it is not possible to install an LPG tank in the garden due to the proximity regs and some BT services running through.

    The water lag thing bugs me and makes the kitchen lady grumpy. I reckon we would waste about £25 per year on the water bill just due to waiting for hot water at the kitchen tap. Add the waste energy in the hot water trapped when the tap is turned off and it gets worse. I know folks say it's not waste but it is. The pipes are under a suspended floor and it is very well ventilated down there.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
     
    Fred
    Have you thought of one of those taps that supplies hot water as well. Then it is just a cold feed and a power cable.

    Failing that a recirculating system with well lagged pipes and on a timer (or not).

    Just for others information, it costs more to buy our water that it does to heat it :devil:
    • CommentAuthorFred56
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2016
     
    Steamy.
    I had not thought of the tap. Will look at it.
    I've done secondary circulation loop before on a barn with a very large footprint. It works but it costs in pipe, bronze pump and heat loss. It destrats the cylinder though.
    Heat loss is the thing. I never measured it because I had no means of doing do. I have seen a few district heating systems and the losses are big. Setting aside the mud geysers just insulated pipes lose more than I thought. Last winter I rented a cottage on farm holiday site. It had a biomass district heating system with each unit having heat metering. The owner monitors performance and finds 35% of all heat sent out is lost in the distribution piping. Interesting.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 27th 2016
     
    I would not be keen on a recirculating system. I never considered the affects on the cylinder, that is a good thing isn't it, can store more energy in it.
    One advantage down here is the soft water we have. My kettle has never had any scale in it, not a speck, unlike when I lived in Buckinghamshire. So a heating tap should last well.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeJul 27th 2016
     
    Yes, look into the tap. I've read good reports about the higher quality ones, see the aforementioned JSHarris once more on his buildhub blog.

    Don't bother with recirculating, imo.
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