If decarbonisation looks, miraculously, to be kinda solved, or on the way, this is the next-but-one aspect of the crisis, that now demands attention - exponential demand for a new selection of finite natural resources, lithium being only one of them, which is already disastrous in many far-away places, socio-politically and environmentally. As the Guardian tells it, this is the first study that joins many of the dots and quantifies a solution:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jan/24/us-electric-vehicles-lithium-consequences-research

"The US’s transition to electric vehicles could require three times as much lithium as is currently produced for the entire global market, causing needless water shortages, Indigenous land grabs, and ecosystem destruction inside and outside its borders"
(quadruple that for Europe, and 'rest of world'). But by ...

"... changing the way we get around towns and cities – fewer cars, more walking, cycling and public transit made possible by denser cities – followed by downsizing vehicles and recycling batteries ... the lithium demand would be 92% lower"

Incredible that battery recycling is not already !00%, so that proper recycling is the third most important measure that's missing.

'Public transport' needn't mean only urban and it needn't mean even waiting for scheduled services to most-popular destinations. We on GBF are aware of the multitude of other transport possibilities, ranging from on-demand minibus/taxis to swift-response driverless individual 'pods' which electronically couple together when travelling a main route at speed then peel off individually for the 'last mile'. Extrapolating present his-and-hers SUV-neccessity is shaky foundation for future-gazing.

Posted By: WillInAberdeenin terms of the mass of materials

tonnage of pure-deposit coal and oil to keep fossil world-energy going, vs tonnage of lo-grade ore of lithium to store world's electricity - what sleight of hand! It's a staggeringly large new lithium-ore quarry anyway. Reduce that by 92%, as the second article hopes, then maybe.

It will only work properly if the national government takes responsibility and forces the issue. It needs an environmentally responsible public transport organised by national government and paid for through taxation. Instead, nearly all governments are shifting the responsibility onto the private individual which simply will not work.

Electric cars may have less running emissions but are they really good for the environment when looked at on a whole life perspective?

The other thing is needs a change in lifestyle from the population as a whole to one that requires much less motorised transport.

djh,

I agree completely and I don't think there is either the political will nor the political/practical foresight. We have a 'ruling/political elite who are incapable of understanding how the world really works for the vast majority of the population.

In the end electric cars will not replace petrol/diesel but the latter will disappear with the obvious consequences.

I agree. There is a complete disconnection between the people who need the local transport, the people who would pay the taxation to pay for it, and the politicians who would organise it.

Suppose for the sake of argument that my council tax exactly matches the cost of running a car. If I am going to be persuaded to give up the car, then perhaps a local subscription scheme would work. The council would provide a personalised minibus service, on call 24 hours a day, and my council tax would pay for it. If I were persuaded that the service would work almost perfectly, and never go on strike, I MIGHT give up my car.
The snag would be that there would be no money for any other local government services.

Cliff Pope,

the problem with finding a solution in the UK is the assumption that public transport can't work sufficiently well. I have lived in several European countries where they functioned extremely well.

Pile-o-Stone,

so where do you think the solution lies? Do bare in mind that for those of us living out in the sticks such as myself electric cars are not really a solution nor will they be affordable come 2035 due to a lack of stock compared to the demand. Nor do electric cars work for all those flat capped, pigeon fanciers living in the terrace houses of the north as how do you charge them?

I've lived in other EU countries where people are much keener on mopeds and motor-scooters. Those offer better 'range' and speed than pushbikes do, so negating many of the concerns mentioned above, and they consume less resources and road space than cars. Just about anyone who is fit enough to drive a car, is also fit enough to drive some kind of small motorcycle or motor scooter or trike. They're increasingly available with battery electric motors, which bridge the gap between e-bikes and small EVs.

I don't know why they're unpopular in the UK and why green organisations here aren't pushing harder for them. Here, we only seem to link motor scooters with pizza delivery, or else with high-risk leisure motorbiking.

As with pedal bikes, they are at risk when sharing a road occupied 99% by cars, but once 20%+ of people are on a moped then they are normalised and the risk gets much less. In NL, the 'bromfiets' are limited to 30mph and you have a license, helmet and insurance, and lots of people ride them.

Anyone here considered trading down from a car to a moped?

E-bikes seem to be the best compromise. In Holland, with its segregated cycling infrastructure, separate regulations exist for the 16mph/25kph limited e-bikes that look like juiced up normal bikes and the much more heavy duty "e-pedelec" that can do up to 30mph/45kph (and have to use the road when the speed limit is 50kph or less). Both types are very popular for commuting as they increase commuting range without the downside of the morning traffic jam delay and uncertainty.

A single sub-50cc (often two stroke) moped is as polluting as a large lorry. For this reason alone these should be outlawed in favour of electric versions ASAP. So far they have escaped regulatory clampdowns for fear of targeting the 'wrong' demographic/social strata.

Posted By: WillInAberdeen
But electrification is indeed the obvious next step.

As well as a climate crisis and urban air quality crisis, we also have an obesity crisis so non motorised urban transport is likely the more sensible next step.

We're fully electric already so there must be another step for some of us

I've been getting irritated with the 'infotainment' systems in recent electric cars (because that's all I've seen recently), but it just occurred to me that maybe dinosaur-fuelled cars also have the same idiotic infotainment systems? For example, I was sitting in the car today listening to the radio and every minute it beeped at me and popped up a message warning me I was discharging the [low voltage] battery, and advising me to start the car. Which would use a lot more power of course.

Posted By: WillInAberdeenInfotainment's the brave new world. If I'm driving along in snow with winter gloves on, and I want to blow air to clear the windscreen, I have to pull a glove off to tap through to the correct menu screen. And yes it won't let me listen to the radio without the engine running, and hence the auto headlights and wipers on, to preserve the charge of the 12V battery. That's in my wife's dinosaur-burner from 2016.

Recently new to EV owning - what a lot of gadgets included and yes lots of them aren't accessible whilst wearing gloves. Very light to drive, I've had to swap my farm boots used to drive the Land Rover for ballet pumps for the EV - still whilst lots of gadgets to go wrong with it's 7 year bumper to bumper warranty hopefully it won't be my problem.

Gloves readily available that have conductive finger tips, for touching screens.

Tried those gloves, but they don't stand up to shovelling the snow and salt to dig the car out in the morning.... If there was a button to do that autonomously, I'd be the first to buy!


Cars are now just 4-wheeled IT networks. If you have a problem in 7 years time, you'll message the dealer's IT support chatbot, who will ask if you have subscribed to all the software updates and whether you have turned the car off and on again. Then you'll be told your problem is a feature not a bug.