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Commercial build: How would you convert & heat a small chapel?

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      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2008
     
    I think it was built in the 1920's
    I think it's bricks with render (quite think render from what I can tell)

    The roof is sound - but I need to put in a false ceiling and insulate above it

    The walls appear to be in excess of 12 inches thick - so I don't think I can add additional insulation

    The windows are (unfortunately) double glazed (uPVC) so that will have to stay until I can afford to do something in the future

    (in case you are wondering I have given up the nursery in the barn idea - for a variety of reasons)
  2.  
    ''The walls appear to be in excess of 12 inches thick - so I don't think I can add additional insulation''

    Course you can. Why not? Does it front straight onto the street, or neighbours' land? Unless these are the case, why can't you strip off the render, insulate and render again (in lime)?
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2008
     
    OK - I could

    But could I afford to?
  4.  
    Ah. A recent quote did suggest that the contractor must be using gold somewhere in the mix! A quote I heard of today was c £17000 for 134m2!!! It's DIYable. Keith did an article a few years ago.

    If you are not happy to render, what about timber cladding?

    Good luck. Sorry about the barn. Sounds like it may be for the best in the end.
    • CommentAuthorcaliwag
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2008
     
    Shame about the barn/nursery, but based on your last figures it didn't seem to stack up...hope you didn't lost too much!

    I know people on here will suggest external insulation but it would seem to me that quick heat up (ie internal insulation, more easily applied) would be more appropriate.

    But it must depend on your heating and ventilation method. Maybe a big space like a chapel has different ventilation demands, or ventilation will happen anyway!

    Comes down to how you will use the place, whether you can add insulation externally, what you can do with the floor, and even what you can afford to do with the windows. Comes down to budget.
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2008
     
    Do 12 inch plus solid walls need extra insulation?

    I was wondering about a boiler (woodchip? Please not LPG or Oil) possible placed outside (in a little lean to of some sort?)
  7.  
    Yes!!!!!

    Approx u value (watts lost per m2 when it's a degree colder outside) exg wall = 2. Bldg regs: 0.35. Desirable? Less than 0.2? Why ensure that you need a big boiler. Why not try to ensure you don't need one at all?
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2008
     
    Really?

    Gosh

    OK so insulate - should I take up the floor boards & put insulation underneath? (Is that easy? i guess not)

    Now about the heating?
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2008
     
    Size of chapel - 12m by 10m

    I need to do

    Gutters & roof
    Windows 4 big ones & 4 small ones
    2nd Glazing - beautiful art deco stained glass - 2 big ones & a circular one
    Doors - 2 external
    Mezzanine - This will be expensive
    Staircase - straight normal ordinary (off the peg?)
    Heating - how green can I go?
    Toilets - only 5
    Septic Tank - something different?
    Electrics - dado with it all in?
    Re-plastering - loads
    Ceiling small room - 3.5m by 8m
    Floor - sand & varnish - which varnish - my dad was on about boiled linseed oil (or something?)
    Fences - 20m white picket fence plus 20m fence panels
    Landscaping - 6m by 20m of some hard surface
    Decorations - I guess I need a roller
    Kitchen - lots for a commercial one
    Partitians - these are fabulous pitch pine - kind of like sash windows but they come up from counter height to separate the 2 rooms
    Refurbish the doors - front double doors and a single door

    So that's going to cost a bit

    I haven't forgotten the insulation
    :shocked:
    • CommentAuthorstephendv
    • CommentTimeMay 4th 2008
     
    As an alternative to a septic tank you could consider a dry composting toilet or an aquatron:
    http://www.solutionelements.co.uk/atron.htm
    • CommentAuthorwalrus
    • CommentTimeMay 5th 2008
     
    1920's building? Asbestos check? (don't presume - if asked the question you must know before other work starts - unpalatable but true)!

    Insulation? Quickest way is drywall inside with nice thick insulation slabs beween drywall and solid walls - cheap easy to do! Maybe not absolutely 'super' builders standards but they will work! Nice thick roof insulation too!

    Commercial kitchen standards - check with local authorities, but first decide what you will be 'cooking' If as in most nurseries its only tea and toast you won't need a kitchen good enough for the ritz!!

    Only 5 toilets? According to the Welfare Regs that's enough for 100 people how many kids you going to cram in this place? I'd be more inclined to have one dedicated staff/adult (that's enough for 15 if a lockable door, it's unisex too) Then a couple of others (child size?) for the kids - don't forget washing facilities!
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeMay 5th 2008
     
    1 toilet per 10 chidren over the age of 2 (OFSTED) - so 30 children = 3 loos

    If I have 6 or more staff I need 2 loos

    1907 - does that make a difference

    I need a sealed floor - but can have standard cupboards - I will prob have a commercial kitchen unit but a domestic fridges (2 - one for meat) Freezers & cooker - we wil be cooking proper meals

    The ceiling is Zinc will that be easy to insulate?
    • CommentAuthorwalrus
    • CommentTimeMay 6th 2008
     
    Katymac - typical ain't it different regulation different requirements, looks like kids is better off than adults for toilets, wonder what else?


    As for your ceiling, not being an expert on 'wrinkly tin' all I can say is that the few large enterprises that do have it in their buildings (apparantly it's a Victorian idea or so I'm told) are removing it as it is associated with Asbestos, careful with it!
    • CommentAuthorTheDoctor
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2008
     
    you cant second guess asbestos without a survey
    it was built 1907, but has upvc windows

    work has been clearly done on the property in the intervening years, and if any of that work was post war up to mid-eighties, you may well find asbestos.

    asbestos can be in vinyl floor tiles, boiler and pipework insulation, board sheeting, sink pads etc etc.


    get a survey done. Many Councils have a Department that will survey for you for a price.
    get a surveyor independent from an asbestos removal company. That way you will get impartial advice.
    Some unscrupulous commercial removal companies pray on the fact that it is a 'scary' topic, and prices get ramped, and extra things get taken for lab analysis etc.

    work out what is there, if its there, and then get a quote for its removal
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2008
     
    No water or heat in the building - no floor tiles - no sink (this is looking good)

    Ceiling hasn't been touched since it was put up (apparently)

    I will look into a survey
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeMay 7th 2008
     
    Planning have confirmed that I don't need planning permission to convert it to a nursery

    Mix up over the windows I think I will have to replace them with uPVc not that they already are - sorry

    Apparently I will need planning permission to replace the windows & possibly even to put up a fence
    :confused:
    • CommentAuthorTheDoctor
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
     
    make sure you have it in writing from the Planners that the change of use to nursery is acceptable.

    They have short memories, little or no accountability, and a habit of flitting from Council to Council leaving a trail of unrecorded destruction! (personal experience!)

    This piece of paper may prove useful if you decide to sell in the future.


    shame to install upvc, though!
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
     
    On occasion, it can be worth considering the idea of converting by building an independent shell within the existing building: The old building is just upgraded only so far as you need to make it weatherproof.

    This occasionally has the advantage of ease of construction (although the design costs may be higher)

    Good luck
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
     
    The kitchen will be in the building as will the toilets but the mezzanine will be free standing

    uPVC might be softwood - I really cant afford hard wood

    But the windows are very big

    The current use is D1 which is the same 'class' as nursery - I will get a piece of paper tho'
  20.  
    What is the floor made of? In areas frequented by children, UFH is ideal, no rads to fall against, lower temp surfaces etc. UFH is also ideal for areas with high ceilings. Does prefer cement screeded floors on concrete subfloor. This will involve lots of work. It is possible to fit UFH on timber subfloors, but it is a lot more expensive. Can be combined with low temp rads on mezzanine. Can be supported by solar energy through heatstore or buffer tank.
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
     
    I know - I love UFH

    But we have beautiful pitch pine flooring - so I think that is a non-starter:sad:
  22.  
    Another option is wall heating, like UFH but using a whole wall to radiate heat. Best of both worlds, keep your nice floors but get the benefits of UFH. This would be especially suitable if you intent to redo the inside walls with insulation anyway. Might be worth looking at....
    • CommentAuthorTheDoctor
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
     
    you dont get all the benefits of UFH, just some of them.

    The heat profile across the room with wall heating is closer to that of radiators than UFH. creating convection currents.

    UFH has a fairly even temperature gradient from floor to ceiling. Wall heating will lead to cooler areas centrally, and heat the upper, un-occupied areas more than UFH
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
     
    We have to take the floors up to insulate - I am assuming that you can't put UFH under wood as wood would insulate against the heat plus it might warp?
    • CommentAuthorspynappels
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008 edited
     
    Posted By: TheDoctoryou dont get all the benefits of UFH, just some of them.

    The heat profile across the room with wall heating is closer to that of radiators than UFH. creating convection currents.

    UFH has a fairly even temperature gradient from floor to ceiling. Wall heating will lead to cooler areas centrally, and heat the upper, un-occupied areas more than UFH


    Correct, I apologise for oversimplifying. However, we have had good results just using the lower half of the wall and using 2 or 3 walls. This will concentrate the heat lower down, approximating UFH a bit more. You do not generally have to worry about convection currents as much, as the temperature differential is nowhere near that when using radiators as the surface temperature is very much lower.
    • CommentAuthorspynappels
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008 edited
     
    Posted By: KatymacWe have to take the floors up to insulate - I am assuming that you can't put UFH under wood as wood would insulate against the heat plus it might warp?


    It is possible, but not recommended, to put UFH under wooden floorboards. You would need to place grooved aluminium plates under the boards, with your pipes running through the grooves. They would need much higher flow temperatures as the wood would act as an insulator. I would not ever recommend to a client that they do this, there is too much scope for problems.
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
     
    That's what I thought

    But if I have a mezzanine, insulate under the floor, in the walls, in the mezzanine & in the ceiling I can minimise my heating bill
    • CommentAuthorTheDoctor
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008 edited
     
    i wouldn't insulate the mezzanine floor.

    use the heat from below, dont block it out! heat rises..



    edit: unless it is just an occasional space / storage space. In which case, consider insulating it from the main accommodation
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
     
    It will be occasional use initially but eventually I want it hired out all the time hopefully

    The biggest problem is how to heat it tbh:confused:
    • CommentAuthorwalrus
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2008
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: TheDoctor</cite>you cant second guess asbestos without a survey
    it was built 1907, but has upvc windows

    work has been clearly done on the property in the intervening years, and if any of that work was post war up to mid-eighties, you may well find asbestos.

    asbestos can be in vinyl floor tiles, boiler and pipework insulation, board sheeting, sink pads etc etc.


    get a survey done. Many Councils have a Department that will survey for you for a price.
    get a surveyor independent from an asbestos removal company. That way you will get impartial advice.
    Some unscrupulous commercial removal companies pray on the fact that it is a 'scary' topic, and prices get ramped, and extra things get taken for lab analysis etc.

    work out what is there, if its there, and then get a quote for its removal</blockquote>

    Further these comments, as it would appear that you don't have most of these items I doubt if they will concern you - yes a survey is the only way to confirm if you have Asbestos or not, but remember even a type three survey (destructive) only covers the area surveyed! The bit next door (literally not figuratively) may still be asbestos!

    Certain asbestos items like vinyl tiles have it in the mix, so depending on how much may not require expert removal. Finally asbestos is only dangerous if disturbed - the fibres don't jump up to get you! It may be possible to encapsulate the small amount you find with suitable warnings saying that Asbestos is behind! Your probaly ONLY at risk from the ceiling area - a survey is the only sure way of checking but..............see my comments above - get an trained expert to check not a self appointed one, check for qualifications, if he can't show you something AVOID...........

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