Posted By: Chris WardleRegarding "free" public transport. For starters it isn't free. It will have to be paid for by increasing taxes, cutting other spending programmes (which I'm all for) or increasing the national debt

Agree. Somebody has to pay for all this. Increasing the burden on employers is not the answer - it will just discourage employers from hiring people, as suggested by the persistently high unemployment in heavily regulated France and Germany. Going back to an earlier comment, I don't know how Belgium finances the public transport mentioned earlier, but no country can provide *everything*. If we looked close enough I have no doubt that we would find some area that Belgium neglects relative to the UK because it makes public transport a higher priority. Now, whether that's the right priority or not is for the electorate to decide.

Should public transport in the UK be better? Personally I think the time and money would be well spent. It's not happening because most people do not care enough about public transport to make it an election issue. Sad, but true. But that might change.

Dan

Pete, in answer to some of your valid points:-

The principle is already established in cap and trade which is in operation in the EU and a bill is currently before Congress in the States for something similar. We're talking about an extension to households. Given that it is less regressive than a carbon tax and would replace current "green taxes" like fuel duty it might not be such a hard sell. The median carbon budget would be in excess of what most people currently use in the first year or two so most people would pocket a tidy sum.

The trade point is valid one but already a problem that businesses faces with cap and trade. The EU are already talking about import duties on goods from countries that refuse to cut emissions. We are already at a massive disadvantage to Indian and China in global trade hence our trade deficit but that is mainly due to the massive differential in labour costs rather than energy costs. I don't hear anyone calling for lower wages to improve the UK's competitive position.

Re data, TEQs would amount to a simple swipe card that you use alongside your credit card when paying for fuel etc. It would most likely be administered by the banking system alongside your current account. HMG need have no role in the system other than to set the emissions target and the trajectory to get there.

I could see a situation where a progressive country like Sweden or Germany adopted TEQs. It was seen to work and the EU took it on. From there other major countries would start to look at it. There is no easy solution, I just like this proposal and it seems the Environmental Audit Committee do also:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7419724.stm

Agreed

Chris, I have no problem with the concept, but implementing it is another thing all together. As I said before if the majority of the population don't back the idea no government will want to know. Unfortunately it will be a slow process to get this sort of idea accepted. It can only come through education. If primary school children are taught about the environment and schemes like this then eventually it will become the norm. I worked in primary schools for 11 years and unless it is part of the curriculum it is very dependant on the interests of the head and teachers. In one school there was a teacher who was very keen on wildlife and the environment and her children gained a great deal. When she left the replacement teacher was only interested in London stage shows and so the children lost out. Other European countries are years ahead of us because they recognise the importance of education, the environment and its link to quality of life. Most of the people I know think I am mad because I am building a CSH level 6 house. They have always been able to dump anything they want in the dustbin and it just disappears, why can't it continue that way. The price of fuel goes up, so the answer is to reduce the tax so they can use as much as they want!! Education, education, education, of the right type, then maybe things will change.

I'm not sure "big business" is the problem Terry. I think nothing much of any consequence gets done because leaders are too scared of ridicule by the popular press as soon as they open their mouths, so they place safe all the time. Business people want clarity of direction more than anything. How can you plan for investments in new energy infrastructure going forward 50 years when you have absolutely no idea what Government policy is going to be next week?

There's money to be made in the transistion to a low carbon economy and I get the feeling that many in business would just like the Government to fire the starting gun rather than sitting around trying to decide if we should even enter the race. Labour's 60% CO2 reduction target is about as credible as all the other targets and could be ditched just as easily. Another reason why I like TEQs - the policy sets out a clear strategic framework for the long term, everyone knows where we're going and can just get on with developing and implementing the technologies and the lifestyle changes to achieve the goal.

Personally I would rather trade 'free' services like library, swimming, ethnic support groups, bogus re-cycling sites, education that is non vocational, etc for free public transport.

I love a good row. Dan's voted for keeping swimming and the library, so I'll go for the 'non vocational education'. Did a few courses at Sure Start when the kids were babies. Learnt a few more computer skills, a bit of creative writing (wrote to a magazine - Grand designs actually, and won a bread bin for my effort) and was shown how to do patchwork. I love it. The kids have 'bespoke' quilts and I've even done a couple of double bed sized ones. My friends and family have xmas presents and I've even entered an exhibition. I am now considering applying for the Open Studios scheme in our area for next year.

In the process of completing my latest one. . . called 'toenails'.

We all contribute mrswhitecat, through our taxes and the way the government of the day choose to spend our money. If there was free public transport I'm still not sure i would make use of it unless it was easy for me to do so. Both my parents use it - because they are over a certain age and it's free for them.. . . .but they don't have to get kids to school and carry a weeks worth of shopping half a mile up hill.

So let me get this right, I learn trampolining and a second language at the same time??? where do I sign up?

Education, education, education! A friend of mine started getting educated after her babies got a bit bigger. First of all a maths GCSE... She just got her Phd at 38 and is now a research biochemist. Personally I wouldn't go for free public transport - endless diesels chugging people half a mile to the shops.

Are things like buying train/bus tickets and filling your petrol tank part of the TEQs scheme?

Regarding TEQs, I think I'm right in saying that while filling your car would require you to surrender some of your credits, taking a bus or train would not as the operator would have had to surrender credits when purchasing the fuel for the vehicles. It is usually the individual, company or public body that actually uses the fossil fuel that has to stump up the carbon credits. Individuals get their quota as a right, organisations have to bid for carbon credits in an auction process (including public transport operators).

Good topic.
Sadly Ken Livingstone was kicked out of London, he liked free transport.
I'd prefer cheap transport. and a hell of a lot less cars. I suspect to remain a economic the Uk will throw a very large amount amount of money into mass transit in next 5 years. Oil price is going up rapidly, means of storing the eltricity to drive our gadget laden cars is not going to occur over night. Era of cheap energy is ending. Its not worth wasting your time saying you do not like the tube, buses, closeness of others in mass transit. Far better to do something about it. Move near to where work and need. That or ask for buses more frequently, that have bigger seats, more space.
Local councils, national politics will have to say the Bicycle is the means of transit. Some have noted that.

Pete1951 is completly correct in saying that its the current rules/laws we have that make our society, not letting the 'market' decide. Laissez faire markets lead to monopolies and the weathly having an unequal voice. However, along with changes in the law, i think TEQ's are needed though, and from the grass roots, every citizen, but with some very strong mechanisms for the grass roots to see what big business, public bodies are up to, very transperent.
I have just spent two weeks traveling by mass transit and bike around sweden. What they have acheived( i was impressed by roads/rail/bus and cycle) is a lot do with the national character of the swedes. You could tell the non-swede on the night train, noisy, trouble some ones. So I also say the culture of the country needs to change too, to learn to compromise, live with others. the uk thinks the 'market', whatever that maybe, is right. The market, to me is cat eats dog world, rat race. not a place to easily care for lifes unfortunates. if your not fit you do not survive, applying that insane rationale to all parts of our society will not lead to any decent compromise. i have not seen anything 'market' changes have been applied to in last 20 years improve or worsen anything. The state must step and set up a playing field, not the market, which keeps a status quo, it appears to me. The last success i saw was the LSE in 87 going eletronic .
I believe in competition, but not completely free markets. The aim at the moment is to handle the end of cheap energy, which is driving the inflation in foods and transport. Plus stop global warming, i may die before the worst sea level rises occur. Free transport is not going to help either.

About belgium, Belgium, as noted to me does not look as wealthy as us, looking around its towns/cities. But they do have some better services, rails good, buses good, and having seen their hospitals , very good. Their roads are normally in a worse state than ours, but most have great cycle paths/footpaths next to them. Especially in Flanders. Wallonia no.

Anyone bet, that terraced housing. close knit housing will make a big comback in the next five years, and cities/towns become much denser populated?
maybe even proper neighbourhood CHP.