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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeJun 27th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: WulWillie; agree that 5mm is too thin, I was thinking of two layers of 9mm ply with 50mm kingspan or EPS sandwiched in between and using 50mm x 50mm battens for strength, either screwed or nail gunned together. (maybe some glue in the mix too?) You are right, the caravan stuff is tightly bonded which will add to its strength.

    Wul, as in your photo of the floor the standard spec for caravan floors is 34mm XPS foam. The ply is thinner in a caravan than a motorhome due to the overall weight considerations (towing limitations, payloads etc.) and they always use XPS due to its compressive strength 250kPa to 300kPa. It is also the most resistant to moisture.The major guys never use PUR or EPS. In a caravan/motorhome they've got to allow for spillages from the kitchen area and the washroom plus any incidental water leaks. The floor is designed to act as a sandwich panel so the ply skins are fully bonded to the foam. The door you're using is also a sandwich panel and hence the strength from seemingly weak materials
    • CommentAuthorWul
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2013
     
    Thanks Saint,
    very useful comments. here's a pic of the finished floor construction. 75 x 50mm battens, 50mm Kingspan (450mm wide) two layers of 9mm WBP FSC hardwood ply, copious screws. It feels pretty solid once screwed tight.
    • CommentAuthorWul
    • CommentTimeSep 25th 2013
     
    Finished floor:
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeSep 26th 2013
     
    Looks good - but watch out for your plywood quality. WBP doesn't exist as a recognised standard for plywood any more, so if that was sold as WBP, what actually is it????
  1.  
    Wul, just to add my bit....
    Your kingspan looks nice and tight there, but as you say can be a pain in the wotsit to cut precisely to the studs. Not sure of your plans for wall construction but if you're putting kingspan in between studs, I found it much easier to use a table saw (if u have one) cut against a fence, they end up bang on!
    I've made a few buildings for home offices etc, standard construction would be 4x2 stud, 50-70 mm celotex (depending on use of building) between studs, 9 mm OSB over, breather membrane then 25 x 50 vertical batten (for air gap) then horizontal shiplap or fresh cut 9x1 larch boards. If they want vertical cladding I counter batten, On the inside...VCL then internal cladding: sometimes tongue and groove for beach hut look, plasterboard to be plastered, OSB painted (budget option) or ply.
    If you're having a stove in there remember your condensation air gap for your roofing too. I'd do purlins, breather membrane, 25 x 50 batten then roof sheeting.
    Always seems like quite a wall make up on a small building, but makes it so much more useable.
    One other comment... remember that the loading on the floor is pretty much entirely on the perimeter, so where the chassis tapers at the front, you won't have support all the way across for the 3x2's. Quick fix would be to get some 'wings' welded on to chassis. Dunno, might be alright, as the longer sides will cantilever it, but all that wall construction and roof does weigh a bit!
    cheers Jim
    • CommentAuthorWul
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2013
     
    Jim,
    Thanks for your very helpful comments, I shall take them on board.
    You mention the table-saw; what do you use this for? To rip the studs I presume, and not the Kingspan?
    I have just bought a table saw and it has opened up a new world of possibilities (e.g., being able to rip, say a 12mm thick strip of timber for trim; that stuff always costs a fortune in the big sheds).
    I am worried about weight, the chassis is only good for 900kg. I've decided to lighten my construction by using 50x50 , rather than 75 x50 for the wall studs, saving 100kg -200kg overall. ( and 50mm PIR rather than sheep's wool) Hence the table saw. I'll be ripping the 75 x 50 (or 80 x 57 as some bits are) down to 50 x 50, saving weight and hopefully getting a more uniform stud to work with.
    Where is the "condensation air gap" ? Just under the tin, above the roof insulation?
    I really want to see the roof purlins, they are lovely planed douglas fir. It makes the ceiling more complicated but I think it will be worth it ( I read somewhere that this is called an "expressed timber frame" and that's my ideal) The plan for the roof at the moment is 75 x 40 douglas fir rafters, running longitudinally, supported by a central arch (plywood laminated together), 3,5mm veneered ply bent on top of the rafters (purlins?) which will form a finished ceiling surface, vapour barrier, thin foil insulation, 50mm battens, nailed to rafters below, with wool insulation between, then the tin, corrugations at 90 degrees to rafters & battens.
    Would the humps under the tin be sufficient for a "condensation air gap", I wonder? I was planning on using eaves filler though, to keep out beasties, which would prevent air flow. Hmmmm.
    I know what you mean about the corners, it worries me a little too. In situ the corners will all be jacked anyway, using the original caravan jacks, but for moving the hut between sites, I don't want it sagging, creaking, tearing apart. I do have another caravan chassis which has the "wings" you mention already in place, but I was keeping it for Hut2. It gives me an excuse to get some welding gear which I've always wanted though!
    I was initially quite critical of the flimsy construction of most caravans but i've now realised its a fine dance between strength and weight and those guys clearly knew what they were doing after all. Even if they do seem to use cardboard a lot. Humble pie moment.
    • CommentAuthorWul
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2013
     
    New table saw
    • CommentAuthorWul
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2013
     
    I'm using vertical board and batten cladding, see mock up below, the douglas fir is a lovely pinky colour, although I guess it will fade.
    • CommentAuthorWul
    • CommentTimeSep 27th 2013
     
    DF for purlins.
  2.  
    Wul, sorry...been away for the weekend. Yes, I use a table saw to rip the kingspan to the exact width to fit between the studs as it makes for a very accurate cut using the fence if the table is wide enough!
    The air gap should be after the insulation and before the cladding or roof sheet. If you want to leave the purlins exposed, i'd put your ply on top then vapour barrier as you say, then 50 mm kingspan (or whatever thickness you require), breather membrane, 25 x 50 batten to form the (25mm) air gap then roof sheet. I say this as an alternative to your foil and wool combo as it doesn't leave a 'defined' gap so the wool will most probably end up filling the corrugates of the tin reducing any airflow. The battens can be fixed by nailing/screwing through the insulation into the purlin below.
    Might be naughty but I've never really bothered with eaves fillers as the standard corrugated profile only leaves an 18 mm gap, so only the small beasties can get in! .. or if you prefer to have eaves fillers you might still get enough ventilation at the ridge. Or use a mesh/ netting for filler so it stops the beasties but not the air!
    Love the tones in the DF, I've been using a lot of Larch of late as its more available, but the Douglas is more pleasing to the eye...it's going to look right proper!! good work!
    Jim
    • CommentAuthorWul
    • CommentTimeOct 1st 2013
     
    Hey,
    Thanks Jim. Good ideas. Full sheets of Kingspan would be cheaper than the 450mm bats too.
    I should have mentioned that the roof is curved, railway carriage style, (1.6m radius) Which rules out the Kingspan, and any flexible, bendy-ridgid, insulation I've seen is an arm and leg and another arm. I was even thinking of camping mats at one point ( I need to check the Scout Shop for prices)

    After your comment on the load being on the perimeter, I've realised I should have run the floor "joists" right to the edge of the ply, rather than up to a perimeter plate, for more strength.
    Having said that, testing the edges of the floor "sandwich" for bend reassures me that it is very stiff.
    I'm sure I read , when I was building my house, that the load on the foundations for a single story timber-framed house were no greater than an adult male standing on the founds.
    Thank you for your comments.
    • CommentAuthorWul
    • CommentTimeOct 1st 2013
     
    In reply to "Timber" re the WBP standard.
    Yes I've found this confusing (new thread about this in "self-build")

    I used this stuff, on the advice of the merchant. What do you reckon to its provenance?
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeOct 1st 2013
     
    Posted By: WulI should have mentioned that the roof is curved, railway carriage style, (1.6m radius) Which rules out the Kingspan, and any flexible, bendy-ridgid, insulation I've seen is an arm and leg and another arm.
    Go for a polystyrene board, XPS rather than EPS and score the top side across the width every 50mm or so (can't remember how deep but say two thirds of the thickness, a bit of a suck it and see). That enables it to bend. Using a 2500mm board and if my geometry is still there or thereabouts each score line would be about 1mm wide to get you round that radius
    • CommentAuthorWul
    • CommentTimeOct 1st 2013
     
    Saint,
    Yes, that sounds like a plan! I could use a circular saw for that.

    I'm not sure what the difference between XPS and EPS is, I'm off to Google it. Thanks.
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeOct 1st 2013 edited
     
    Wul, XPS extruded polystyrene, EPS expanded polystyrene.
    XPS is the more structural of the two foams produced from a melt of styrene with a blowing agent that gives it the thermal properties. Its more water resistant with higher compressive and tensile strength and normally better thermal unless you go for the CO2 blown variety. Different European manufacturers make it in different colours, pink, green, blue, yellow, lilac, orange etc. etc.
    Expanded polystyrene is made by expanding small coated beads of polystyrene using penthane. These beads are then fused together in a steam chamber to create a large block that is later sliced into boards. The entrapped air gives the product its thermal property. White in colour unless enhanced with graphite that increases its thermal performance which turns the product grey (platinum or silver)
    Be careful wth a circular saw, at the wrong speed the blade heats up (and there's no where for the heat to go...its inside an insulant!) the polystyrene then sticks to the blade.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2013
     
    Posted By: SaintBe careful wth a circular saw, at the wrong speed the blade heats up (and there's no where for the heat to go...its inside an insulant!) the polystyrene then sticks to the blade.

    My groundworkers had good luck with a petrol-driven Stihl saw/cutter (sorry, don't know what type of disc they used). It did get warm but made a pretty clean cut through high-density EPS. They tended to prefer a good quality hand saw for the regular low density stuff, which was surprisingly quick and effective.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2013
     
    Posted By: SaintWul, XPS extruded polystyrene, EPS expanded polystyrene.
    OK, I can remember that a pEn is stationEry but a cAr can be stationAry but how do I remember these two?
  3.  
    A lower case "e" looks a bit like a balloon; a balloon will expand if you blow into it.

    An "x" on the other hand is a perfect shape for extruding.

    Does this help?

    David
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2013
     
    Yes, I suppose an 'e' is shaped like the little blobs in expanded polystyrene whereas an 'x' is distinctly not.
  4.  
    For me (rather dyslexic) I prefer that E comes first in the alphabet - the product came first, it absorbs more water than XPS, it comes in only 2 colours, it isn't as strong, it isn't as good an insulator and it makes a big mess when you cut it, X comes later in the alphabet and scores better on all these points though costs more :) - whatever works for you of course.
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeOct 2nd 2013
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesOK, I can remember that a pEn is stationEry but a cAr can be stationAry but how do I remember these two?
    Very good, I never got taught that

    Posted By: davidfreeboroughA lower case "e" looks a bit like a balloon; a balloon will expand if you blow into it.
    An "x" on the other hand is a perfect shape for extruding
    Very good too :bigsmile:

    Now try this. If PUR is the shorthand for P oly UR ethane then why isn't P oly IS ocyanurate called PIS....ah I can see the problem
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 3rd 2013
     
    Oil rigs in then North Sea where abbreviated to a single letter then the country designator UK
    Worked well until they were going to name the 6th one.
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