Green Building Forum - Another election: am I the first to mention it

Another election: am I the first to mention it

fostertom — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 17:58:34 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTeaWhat is meant by 'strong'?
Does it mean unmovable, unyielding or willing to negotiate on an equal footing?

Exactly.
That's 2 kinds of 'strength' to wish for -
one that thinks the world is a harsh place of bullies, and perpetually makes that true;
the other that notices that humans (the most social of all species) like to 'put themselves in the other's shoes' 83.67% of the time.

Another election: am I the first to mention it

SteamyTea — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:01:00 +0100

Or 52% (not including the non-votes) of the time.

Another election: am I the first to mention it

bot de paille — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:14:37 +0100

Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic

Trump/Hillary are both about as Establishment as it gets

Macron, who will win in France, a centrist, middle of the road establishment figurehead

plus Ã§a change, plus c'est la mÃªme chose...

Another election: am I the first to mention it

barney — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 18:52:07 +0100

Well ST, depending on the circumstances a combination of all three I would suspect (and hope for)

Regards

Barney

Another election: am I the first to mention it

fostertom — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 19:11:47 +0100

Posted By: bot de pailleEstablishment as it gets

What's Establishment mean? Not simply right wing - indeed I wouldn't call Hilary that. It means a veil of respectability cloaking a cynical familiarity with the 'real' levers of power. That describes Hilary but not a raw crude self-made biz bruiser. Macron - maybe yes; LePen, no.

Another election: am I the first to mention it

bot de paille — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:02:57 +0100

Look past the meaningless figureheads (trump,Hillary,Obama) and see who these people surround themselves with.

People never look beyond the facile headlines, but when you look at the men and women surrounding them, they are all establishment. Wallstreet and military industrial complex.

The Wall Street White House: Trump hires fifth Goldman Sachs staffer to the administration :

http://www.salon.com/2017/03/16/the-wall-street-white-house-trump-hires-fifth-goldman-sachs-staffer-to-the-administration/

JosÃ© Manuel Barroso - Goldman Sachs - Greece
https://www.thenation.com/article/goldmans-greek-gambit/
https://euobserver.com/institutional/135227

Mario Draghi -one time head of the European bank, now working alongside his friend Barroso at Goldman Sachs

http://hellenicinsider.com/how-mario-draghi-and-his-goldman-sachs-pals-are-making-a-killing-off-of-greeces-misery/

Clintons + Goldman Sachs
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/25/us/politics/bill-hillary-clinton-goldman-sachs.html?_r=0

"Mrs. Clintonâ€™s blessing â€” an important public seal of approval for Goldman at a time when it had few defenders in Washington â€” underscored a long-running relationship between one of the countryâ€™s most powerful financial firms and one of its most famous political families. Over 20-plus years, Goldman provided the Clintons with some of their most influential advisers, millions of dollars in campaign contributions and speaking fees, and financial support for the family foundationâ€™s charitable programs.

And in the wake of the worst crash since the Great Depression, as the firm fended off investigations and criticism from Republicans and Democrats alike, the Clintons drew Goldman only closer. Bill Clinton publicly defended the company and leased office space from Goldman for his foundation. Mrs. Clinton, after leaving the State Department, earned $675,000 to deliver three speeches at Goldman events, where she reassured executives that they had an important role to play in the nationâ€™s recovery."

Another election: am I the first to mention it

fostertom — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 20:44:05 +0100

Gd evidence bot but those status-quo 'realities' may be outpointed by the even more powerful revolutionary popular symbolic perception of what's in the air. Don't bank on the establishment always being able to co-opt what's going on.

Another election: am I the first to mention it

bot de paille — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 21:09:00 +0100

they dont have to coopt, they just need to back all the horses in the race

Philippe de Villiers, this man is about as establishment at it gets, hear what he has to say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhAuCSDAy_w

this should be on all the frontpages

I cannot exaggerate the importance of what this man says. All conversation about Trump, Brexit, Left/Right politics becomes meaningless afterwards.

Another election: am I the first to mention it

SteamyTea — Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:09:13 +0100

Posted By: bot de paillePhilippe de Villiers, this man is about as establishment at it gets, hear what he has to say:

Very funny

Another election: am I the first to mention it

bot de paille — Tue, 25 Apr 2017 07:55:42 +0100

Do you know who the man is?

Another election: am I the first to mention it

gravelld — Tue, 25 Apr 2017 10:41:54 +0100

Maybe these establishment figures (like people who run investment banks, not the landed gentry) actually understand a bit more about how the current economy works?

If you get a wrecking ball in who attended a couple of economics lectures at University and reads /r/Economics a lot maybe they don't understand the complexities and the unknown unknowns.

But obviously, it's a fine line you walk between getting someone who understands things to deconstruct it, or otherwise just make the problem worse.

Another election: am I the first to mention it

fostertom — Tue, 25 Apr 2017 11:32:44 +0100

Economics as respectably taught and practised is the problem http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15032

Another election: am I the first to mention it

SteamyTea — Tue, 25 Apr 2017 15:07:02 +0100

Posted By: fostertomEconomics as respectably taught and practised is the problem

Don't that just fit and confirm the way you wished things worked, rather than reality of how they actually work?

Another election: am I the first to mention it

torrent99 — Tue, 25 Apr 2017 15:20:29 +0100

Posted By: fostertomEconomics as respectably taught and practised is the problem http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=15032

Well MACRO Economics anyway. The micro stuff is more tractable.

Macro Economics is like weather prediction, only we don't really understand the "physics" nearly as well because involves those pesky human being things (as well as weather).

Another election: am I the first to mention it

fostertom — Tue, 25 Apr 2017 16:51:55 +0100

I had understood that Micro Economics meant the study or 'applied science' of how exactly to reliably manipulate humans to buy things, click on things etc - pragmatic data-mining of huge behavioural data sets (our lives, that we consent to be collected and auctioned off by the likes of Facebook), free of fundamemtal 'whys' - just 'well, it works'. Highly valued by marketeers but basically contemptible.

Then I discovered that Micro Economics is all the ways that little bits of numerical cleverness can be tucked into Economics over the last 100yrs, in pursuit of the goal of promoting Economics to the status of a proper Science. Like Science in general, but shockingly more so, only those little bits of Economics amenable to numerics were attempted; later that was inverted (as in Science) so that only the little numeric bits are now deemed 'Science'; the rest is mere 'popular science', 'anecdotal' etc.

Except that in Economics, still claiming via Micro Economics to be a Science, the limited skills of Micro Economics barely touch huge swathes of Macro Economics, yet Macro Economics is somehow included in the Science of Economics.

Macro Economics is what (ideological) politicians do; both politicians and Economists like to imply that Macro Economics is 'scientific' (as in 'Economics Experts' being interviewed on telly), but too often only the numerical bits have any rigorous Micro Economics input at all - and of course Micro Economics itself only deals with the most abstracted, selective bits of any economic picture.

Another election: am I the first to mention it

fostertom — Tue, 25 Apr 2017 17:01:29 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTeathe way you wished things worked, rather than reality of how they actually work

Economics indeed is 'the way the world works' - disastrously, as far as the humans, other living things and planet caught in its blinkered practice.

Another election: am I the first to mention it

SteamyTea — Tue, 25 Apr 2017 21:56:05 +0100

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macroeconomics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microeconomics

Not many scientist that think that Economics is a science.
Still a very interesting area of study though as it involved chaotic systems, tipping points, irrationality, scarcity and abundance, in equal measures, and cannot be run backwards.