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Housing - New Build: Ideas

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    • CommentAuthorCJT
    • CommentTimeMar 20th 2023
     
    Hi, Finalising the drawings for a 150M2 Sips house and looking for ideas/suggestions. I was thinking ground source for heat. I am going to insulate inside with 67mm insulated p/board. Putting a log burner in the living room and one in the kitchen diner.I would like UFH simply because i have it presently and like it. With no experience of a well insulated house im wondering do i really need a heat pump ?I have 300 metres away maybe 30 solar panels on a farm building i can tap into if that's feasible, So maybe heat water with one of the log burners & Solar thermal for summer. Hope that's clear. Many thanks.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2023
     
    Ideal opportunity to go the extra mile (actually only an extra 100yds in such a case!) to insulate etc to the point where you don't need a heating system at all - aka Passive House. Might even save you capital expenditure, then a lifetime of zero fuel costs. You will still need tap water heating.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2023
     
    👍
  4.  
    And do away with the log burners, you won't need one, never mind 2. Spend that money on MVHR instead, and the left over rmoney spend on more insulation.
  5.  
    Posted By: fostertominsulate etc to the point where you don't need a heating system at all


    Duty bound to point out that Passivhaus buildings almost always do have some form of heating system in the UK.

    But this doesn't undermine fostertom's point that it's always worth going a bit further now and much more expensive and complicated to do it later. You absolutely should insulate to the best you can now, and ventilate well too.

    UFH and heat pump and PV are a good combination I think, but I'd look at air source heat pump rather than ground source unless you have the space and inclination to dig - it seems to me that the market share for ASHP has taken off in the last couple of years and might eclipse GSHP in the way that PV has done to Solar Thermal, but that's just my take. Others on here will be more knowledgeable than me on this.

    There are countless examples of people regretting their log burner installs but I suspect it will be harder to talk you out of this..!
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2023 edited
     
    Posted By: Doubting_ThomasPassivhaus buildings almost always do have some form of heating system in the UK
    But need not be a 'proper' heating system - witness http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17785&page=1#Item_3 - "I heat my house using a 1.8 kW duct heater in the MVHR ducts, and a 1.8 kW radiant heater on a wall by the front door" - and both rarely used I bet - only 'emergency top-up' for the very coldest days.
  7.  
    We had thought of installing a log burner in the barn conversion, but with GSHP and UFH along with MVHR I'm so glad we didn't - it would have been totally unneccesary, messy, in-house winter cooling system, particulate pollution, where to get wood from long term, etc. etc.
    I don't know why anyone would put one in a new house or even a newly converted building these days (If insulated properly)

    They are most useful for existing houses with chimneys (especially to replace open fires) in rural areas (no gas main) to reduce your use of heating oil, while you upgrade the insulation everywhere to the point that they become almost never used, or even redundant.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2023
     
    Posted By: Dominic Cooneyto the point that they become almost never used, or even redundant
    or uncomfortably over-heasting, as they can't be modulated right down.
  9.  
    At which point you know that you have done a good job on the insulation upgrading. So you put on your 1.8 kW radiant heater instead!
  10.  
    By definition, a 150m² passivhaus (U=0.1) needs up to 2250kWh of heating per year, about £400 of direct electricity depending on tariff, and needs 1.5kW of heating. That's not enough that it would be financially worthwhile to fit a GSHP or ASHP, or log burner and flue.

    A house insulated to building-regs (U=0.15 to 0.18) will use 50-80% less insulation and consume 50-80% more heating, so it might be worthwhile fitting an ASHP.

    Ironically a U=0.18 building-regs house with heatpump will consume less energy and emit less operational carbon than a U=0.1 passivhaus with direct electric heating. And that's before we get thinking about the embodied carbon!
    • CommentAuthorCJT
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2023
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Dominic Cooney</cite>And do away with the log burners, you won't need one, never mind 2. Spend that money on MVHR instead, and the left over rmoney spend on more insulation.</blockquote>I am looking to fit MVHR it’s the great unknown that’s worrying me. I can forgoe one log burner In the room but there’s nothing better than direct heat when coming in From the cold. Do you think the floor will be comfortable over 150mm of king pan with no ufh ? Many thanks.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2023 edited
     
    Posted By: Dominic CooneyI don't know why anyone would put [a log burner] in a new house or even a newly converted building these days (If insulated properly)
    +1
  13.  
    DJH made a good point about floors in another thread, the material itself has a lot of bearing on the feeling of comfort - a hard floor e.g. tiles or polished concrete will 'feel' colder than a carpet/rug, even if the floor is the same temperature.



    Posted By: CJTnothing better than direct heat when coming in From the cold


    When you walk into our barn from the cold outside, you feel the warmth - it's just that it's everywhere, uniformly, not from one appliance.
    But we have UFH from a GSHP, does the Hot Water as well.
    If you are putitng new floors in, then adding UFH pipes is dead easy, especially if you are doing it yourself.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2023
     
    Really filthy things, both in carcinogenics and GHG production - the latter only 'carbon neutral' if the woodfuel's sourced on-site without ground disturbance or diesel/petrol. Horse and hand! And even then, burning the on-site hedge trimmings instead of leaving it to grow and eventually rot, brings the GHG production forward to 'now' rather than peaking 30yrs ahead - just the ticket, according to IPCC! As well as depriving the ecosystem of fallen rot-wood, which is essential as compost and wildlife habitat. Burning anything at all, even timber, is bad for climate, ecosystems, toxic pollutants.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2023 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertom
    Posted By: Doubting_ThomasPassivhaus buildings almost always do have some form of heating system in the UK
    But need not be a 'proper' heating system - witness - "I heat my house using a 1.8 kW duct heater in the MVHR ducts, and a 1.8 kW radiant heater on a wall by the front door" - and both rarely used I bet - only 'emergency top-up' for the very coldest days.
    Hmm, it depends on what you mean by rarely. They're used to the extent that they use 15 kWh/m² per year or near enough, as PHPP predicted. About 2200 kWh per year for space heating. It varies a bit more nowadays because I'm less religious about keeping the temperature at 20°C.

    I certainly wouldn't put any log burners in if I was rebuilding. Pollution, CO2, draughts, hassle of refueling and of maintaining a store of dry logs.

    I might well put UFH pipes in, which I didn't before, since they increase the options for heating and cooling. I don't think most GSHP have cooling facilities, which I would want if I do get a heat pump at some time. So either A-A or perhaps an A-W.

    As others have said, you don't miss a source of hotness when everywhere is warm. And you'll rapidly overheat if there is one.
  16.  
    It's a well understood fact, that any mention of a log burner, will immediately sidetrack a GBF thread!

    Posted By: meBy definition, a 150m² passivhaus (U=0.1) needs up to 2250kWh of heating per year, about £400 of direct electricity depending on tariff, and needs 1.5kW of heating. That's not enough that it would be financially worthwhile to fit a GSHP or ASHP, or log burner and flue.

    That (I guess) is why you can't buy A-W heat pumps that are small enough to turn down to PH heating levels of ~1kW. Running an oversized heatpump stop-start is not so good for efficiency but can be done with a thermal store.

    Just idly looking, it also looks hard to buy 1kW wood burners small enough to heat a PH. There are some intended for canal boats or caravans, IDK if they'd meet building regs for a house, they don't heat hot water and you have to split the logs very small! Might be workable to put a boiler stove in an outbuilding to heat a thermal store with batch burning, but reliability problems seem often mentioned here.



    Posted By: djhI might well put UFH pipes in, which I didn't before, since they increase the options for heating and cooling. I don't think most GSHP have cooling facilities, which I would want

    I think you have to be very careful doing cooling with UFH because of condensation in/on the floor and pipework. Better going for air-air heatpumps which have condensation traps and drainage (aka air conditioning!).



    Posted By: CJTSips house... insulate inside with 67mm insulated p/board.
    No direct experience, but be aware of the environmental impact of polyurethane insulation (compared say to a timber frame filled with wool) which could be significant, compared to the heating losses from renewable-ish heat sources.

    If you internally insulate a SIPS, are there issues with the inner skin and air/vapour layer of the SIPS getting too cool and at risk of dewpoint?
    • CommentAuthorRobL
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2023
     
    What about one of these?
    Clearly aimed at DHW, but they do also mention UFH:
    "For higher-end properties, this heating solution works just as effectively with underfloor heating and comes complete with the necessary circulating pump and temperature control valves. The Ground Sun 200 is intuitively operated using intelligent Tiptronic control with touch display."

    https://groundsun.co.uk/small-home-and-apartment-heat-pumps/
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2023
     
    Heat pump water heaters seem to be a coming thing. Cutting extra holes for ducts isn't a very attractive idea, nor is the thought of the noise from a heat pump inside the building, but maybe it works OK? And the apparent simplicity is attractive.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2023
     
    Posted By: Dominic Cooney

    They are most useful for existing houses with chimneys (especially to replace open fires) in rural areas (no gas main) to reduce your use of heating oil, while you upgrade the insulation everywhere to the point that they become almost never used, or even redundant.


    I agree - this is exactly our situation i.e. we installed a log burner during last summer ready for the winter in order to reduce our heating oil consumption (no mains gas here). At the same time we added 75mm of IWI to the external walls of the lounge and that has made a huge difference, in fact the log burner is virtually redundant
    now. The CH comes on at 3.30pm and by 6.00pm the lounge is cooking and we can open the doors to the kitchen and the hallway to disperse the heat. Previously the CH would go off at 10.00pm, now it's 6.00pm.

    If it gets chilly later in the evening we put on our new IR panel heater in the lounge for an hour or so. It only uses 400W so not too expensive to run - in fact about the same cost as the dried logs we use! (I had to buy dried logs because there was no time to season logs as we needed them immediately).

    One advantage of the log burner is that at least we have a completely independent means of heating, in the event of power cuts or shortage of oil.

    If I was starting from scratch I would definitely go for PH and would not entertain the idea of a log burner.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 21st 2023
     
    Posted By: RobLThe Ground Sun 200
    FWIW, I wrote and asked them for details and they've sent me three PDFs that seem fairly comprehensive (I haven't read them in detail yet) so count me impressed so far ...
  21.  
    The Ecocent range of ASHP cylinders have been around for many years, they are also able to sell you just the ASHP bit to plumb into your existing cylinder or store.
    https://www.earthsaveproducts.com/products/ecocent-energy

    The GS200 was discussed in the Other Place couple of years ago, Jeremy Harris had some insights as usual.
    • CommentAuthorCJT
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2023
     
    new to this apologies, how do i do the blue high lighting when i reply to
    someone
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2023
     
    Posted By: CJTnew to this apologies, how do i do the blue high lighting when i reply to someone
    Just use 'Html' formatting, then quotes are highlighted in blue. You can edit previous quotes if you want to change anything.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2023
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenThe Ecocent range of ASHP cylinders have been around for many years, they are also able to sell you just the ASHP bit to plumb into your existing cylinder or store.
    https://www.earthsaveproducts.com/products/ecocent-energy
    Yeah, the ecocent is a very different beast since it takes heat from the inside of the building rather than from the air outside. So it can't provide heat to the building, and it all seems a bit dubious unless you've got an inefficient fossil-burning appliance in the same room or somesuch.
  25.  
    Dunno if it is the done thing to link to the Other Forum, but in the discussion I obliquely referred to, JSH made a strong case that the Ecocent is the same hardware as the other badged heatpumps-on-cylinders, and works just as well as them if taking air from outdoors. The UK distributor has chosen (he says) to focus on marketing it as an EAHP, so has obtained CE etc and CoP datasets as such, but you can buy the same machinery from other countries or other distributors where it is marketed as taking in outside air. The difference seemed to be the quality/longevity of the tank it is mounted onto, though obvs if you use your own tank that's up to you.
    Edited Edit: ESP now say their Ecocent Ambient cylinder "can draw air internally or externally"
    • CommentAuthorneelpeel
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2023
     
    Posted By: CJTI am going to insulate inside with 67mm insulated p/board.

    Why not just go for thicker SIPS panels?

    I must admit I'm a log burner lover as well, but if I was building new then I would go for good insulation and a small A2A ASHP instead. An A2A install should be <£2k. If you can combine with some PV for the ASHP and an immersion for HW then winner winner.
    • CommentAuthorbhommels
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2023
     
    Posted By: WillInAberdeenDunno if it is the done thing to link to the Other Forum, but in the discussion I obliquely referred to, JSH made a strong case that the Ecocent is the same hardware as the other badged heatpumps-on-cylinders, and works just as well as them if taking air from outdoors. The UK distributor has chosen (he says) to focus on marketing it as an EAHP, so has obtained CE etc and CoP datasets as such, but you can buy the same machinery from other countries or other distributors where it is marketed as taking in outside air. The difference seemed to be the quality/longevity of the tank it is mounted onto, though obvs if you use your own tank that's up to you.
    Edit: ESP now say their Ecocent cylinder can "can draw air internally or externally"

    Hi Will, would you mind whispering the link to the other forum please?
    From what ecocent have sent me, it looks like the GS200 would be powerful enough to provide DHW and CH right down to -5 C outdoor temperature, maintaining a COP > 2.5. They muttered something about inefficiencies and rapid cycling when drawing off CH, so I think I should have a proper chat with them before considering ditching the boiler for a GS200. I like the compactness and zero-loss DHW pipework though.
    • CommentAuthorCJT
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2023
     
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: CJTnew to this apologies, how do i do the blue high lighting when i reply to someone
    Just use 'Html' formatting, then quotes are highlighted in blue. You can edit previous quotes if you want to change anything.


    Thank you.
    • CommentAuthorCJT
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2023
     
    Posted By: neelpeel
    Posted By: CJTI am going to insulate inside with 67mm insulated p/board.

    Why not just go for thicker SIPS panels?

    I must admit I'm a log burner lover as well, but if I was building new then I would go for good insulation and a small A2A ASHP instead. An A2A install should be <£2k. If you can combine with some PV for the ASHP and an immersion for HW then winner winner.

    I have talked myself out of ashp up to now as i haven't being convinced. i am going to struggle with no log burner in the kitchen/diner but i am listening and learning. Your idea is the way im am swaying especially if i can link in to the vast solar array we already have on the farm, but..... then that gets me thinking about batteries
    • CommentAuthorCJT
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2023
     
    Posted By: fostertomIdeal opportunity to go the extra mile (actually only an extra 100yds in such a case!) to insulate etc to the point where you don't need a heating system at all - aka Passive House. Might even save you capital expenditure, then a lifetime of zero fuel costs. You will still need tap water heating.


    happy to look at extra insulation if its beneficial, im at the beginning of this so any suggestions are more than welco
    me.

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