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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorborked
    • CommentTimeAug 25th 2007
     
    Hi folks,

    I'm going round in circles here trying to find the best way to insulate my loft which I'm converting to the kids bedrooms.
    The house is an old mediterranean house, the roof has no vapour barrier or anything like that, just 'mechanical' tiles. I've fitted 12 air tiles (3 top and bottom of both faces of the roof to allow air to circulate.

    The way the roof is constructed is a bit different from UK roofs:

    24x12cm purlines running horizontal, spaced 1m apart
    7x5cm rafters sat on the purlins running vertically (perpendicular to the purlins), spcaed 40cm apart
    2.5x2.5cm battens on the rafters running horizontally, spaced ~35 cm (length of the tile)

    I want to insulate between the purlins, leaving as much of the beam showing as possible (aesthetics but also head room).

    I was going to put triso super10, but now I'm having big doubts about its efficiency.

    The roof is in full Mediterranean sun all day and without the insulation, the loft easily reads 40-50oC in the height of summer.

    What's the best way to do this? Cost not a pb, but the space (headroom) is so really don't want to use the whole 24cm depth of the purlins.

    I was thinking 100mm PUR, 3cm space, some reflective thin thing, 2 cm space, foil-backed plasterboard.

    Any thoughts?

    Many thanks
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 25th 2007
     
    Have you considered thatching the roof? It will be very nice and cool inside and if could diy very cheap too. What is the pitch of the roof?
    • CommentAuthorbiffvernon
    • CommentTimeAug 25th 2007
     
    Cost not a pb? Then I'd go for an aerogel insulating board such as Spacetherm. The addition of a single layer of foil above this and below the tiles would probably make a worthwile difference to stopping incoming heat.

    Of course you could stop most of the incoming heat by putting PV panels above the tiles. This will shade your roof, keeping it cool. Oh, and you'll get some electricity as a free by-product.
    •  
      CommentAuthorKeith Hall
    • CommentTimeAug 27th 2007
     
    I'm just writing up for Green building mag how to do this very thing. You need to fix mini rafters beneath the purlins that follow the rafters above, put your insulation in the enlarged space that this creates then fit your ceiling to those mini rafters. this way you could use any conventional air based insulation but my recommendation would be cellulose fibre.
    •  
      CommentAuthorKeith Hall
    • CommentTimeAug 27th 2007
     
    Forgot to add. Then to get your character back fit false purlins beneath the ceiling boards thro to the purlins of any thickness that you desire.
    • CommentAuthorborked
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2007
     
    biffvernon -

    aerogel looks very interesting indeed, but from what I've read up on that (on here also), I won't be able to get a decent enough U-value to eliminate the requirement of fitting A/C units up there in Summer. That's what I was trying to avoid - a couple A/C units would add 2000euro to the total refrub cost, and increase electricity bills throughout Summer, so spending the extra now to try avoid that would be well worth it.

    Keith - exactly what I was thinking... the 1m spacing between the purlins means that the mini rafters don't have to be too important in size to hold the plasterboard.

    But in general, I know I said cost not a pb, but all this without having to redo the roof from the outside. That would be way to expensive, and then theres the time factor as well ;) But Tony - yeah thatched roof would be real nice, but the local council regulations won't allow me to replace the appearance of the roof in any way, so that kills pv panels as well.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2007 edited
     
    If there's doubt about multifoils in temperate climates, there's much less doubt when rejection of summer solar heat is a main priority. A layer of foil at least, or better, multiple layers, does an incredibly superb job of eliminating the solar heat beating on a mid-day summer roof - and it doesn't matter where the foil layer is, the inner or the outer layer, relative to other e.g. between-rafter insulation.
    Assuming your 7x5cm rafters are 7cm vertically, my suggestion, loosely based on UK practice, would be max 35mm Cellotex between the rafters (35mm bottomside airgap), multifoil to the rafters' underside, at least 35mm high counterbattens beneath, plasterboard (don't bother about foil-backed, nor any other kind of vapour-check, to the plasterboard). This way, you lose only 45-50mm of the purlins' visual height.
    If you've got under-tiling felt that has to drape, then reduce the Cellotex thickness to provide topside drape space, or preferably use breather felt flat across unreduced Cellotex/rafter tops, downslope battens on top of that, tiling battens across that.
    Note that multifoil, being 30mm thick, really requires 2x35mm space, not 25mm as generally recommended.
    If the multifoil is the imperforate type, not the stitched type, then it will provide a bit of a vapour check. Or it can be a serious vapour and/or airtight barrier, given lots of detail work at all edges, all mechanically clamped e.g. by screwed battens right into every difficult corner-meeting; no reliance at all on sticky tape, which lasts a year before begining to fail.
    The 70mm high multifoil space provides a services zone inboard of the vapour/airtight membrane, extending to 105mm high here and there, for example to fit a heat-downward (or LCD) recessed spotlight (cut away the Cellotex 200diam locally and use a 100mm length of 110 pipe with 20mm ventilation holes drilled in its side, to prop the multifoil over the fitting - plan where to leave slack in the multifoil).
    With this spec you won't need a/c on account of solar gain through the roof, and in winter should be equivalent to 190mm of Cellotex.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeSep 1st 2007
     
    How to carry a serious vapour and/or airtight membrane over an existing raftered purlin? 2 ways:

    Given topside access, the multifoil can be very carefully slit to lap up the side of each rafter, where it crosses the purlin, there clamped by itty bits of 25x25 batten, incl. bits to the underside where the slit begins. Fiddly but possible, best learned by experiment rather than described.

    Or bite the bullet, one by one cut the nails with a hacksaw blade, wedge up a bit of space between each rafter and the purlin, fiddle in a strip of dpc material 12 + 4 + 4cm wide and re-nail the rafter, move on to the next, so you end up with 200mm wide dpc strip running the length of each purlin's topside, the rafters nailed through it. Turn the 4cm flap down both side faces of the purlin and clamp your multifoil's downturned edge to it.
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