Green Building Forum - Is Hinkley C dead?

Is Hinkley C dead?

SteamyTea — Mon, 07 Mar 2016 18:10:53 +0000

What do people think?

Is Hinkley C dead?

atomicbisf — Mon, 07 Mar 2016 18:52:01 +0000

The cynic in me thinks that Hinkley C was simply a Yes Minister type attempt to kick the problem down the road so it became someone else's problem.

Is Hinkley C dead?

SteamyTea — Mon, 07 Mar 2016 19:03:38 +0000

Been kicked since 2005 when Blair decided that nuclear was green.
If this is correct, then we should it while we sort out the planning and storage issues with renewables:
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/mar/07/hinkley-point-c-what-you-need-to-know-nuclear-power-station

Is Hinkley C dead?

ringi — Mon, 07 Mar 2016 20:00:40 +0000

Maybe the European pressurised reactors (EPR) design is not fit for usage.....

I expect that some of the design that are being built in china (E.g. the Canada design) may get built in the UK before the EPR.

Is Hinkley C dead?

an02ew — Mon, 07 Mar 2016 20:24:26 +0000

Living on the doorstep of the Hinkley site, i can see the money EDF has thrown at this so far some estimates are in the billions, we've had new roads,rest areas, play areas and the work is still ongoing, i find it hard to believe they will just walk away from that kind of investment.

Is Hinkley C dead?

SteamyTea — Mon, 07 Mar 2016 20:29:02 +0000

What, the CANDU

The one that needs active shutdown, similar to the reactor in Chernobyl.

Is Hinkley C dead?

renewablejohn — Mon, 07 Mar 2016 23:42:12 +0000

Posted By: an02ewLiving on the doorstep of the Hinkley site, i can see the money EDF has thrown at this so far some estimates are in the billions, we've had new roads,rest areas, play areas and the work is still ongoing, i find it hard to believe they will just walk away from that kind of investment.

Its only infrastructure for the new gas fired plants which they will build on the site together with a LNG terminal as an alternative to milford haven.

Is Hinkley C dead?

an02ew — Tue, 08 Mar 2016 07:06:39 +0000

Not sure how i feel about that? Gas vs Nuclear? does it smell?

Is Hinkley C dead?

renewablejohn — Tue, 08 Mar 2016 08:00:20 +0000

Posted By: an02ewNot sure how i feel about that? Gas vs Nuclear? does it smell?

The actual footprint of a gas plant is very small. They have built two within two miles of where I used to live and have permission for a third. From the village you would not know there on your doorstep. As for smell I cannot really comment as the power stations are at the side of two oil refineries which absolutely stink. Hence the reason I have moved from Lincolnshire.

Is Hinkley C dead?

rhamdu — Tue, 08 Mar 2016 08:04:02 +0000

CAT's Zero Carbon Britain plan includes synthetic gas as a way of decarbonising our huge investment in domestic gas infrastructure. We'd still be using the old pipes, boilers and cookers, but the gas would be manufactured in a process driven by renewable electricity.

I don't know if something like that would be technically or economically viable at power-station scale. Really speculating here, but one day could we go back to gas-holders as energy storage?

Is Hinkley C dead?

SteamyTea — Tue, 08 Mar 2016 08:13:20 +0000

I went to the place in Plymouth. I was amazed at how small it was for a 885MW capacity. I think it cost about Â£300 million.
No noise or smell.

Is Hinkley C dead?

owlman — Tue, 08 Mar 2016 09:25:53 +0000

Posted By: an02ewNot sure how i feel about that? Gas vs Nuclear? does it smell?

Me neither, not the smell, but gas supply brings with it hidden downsides.

Is Hinkley C dead?

djh — Tue, 08 Mar 2016 10:22:06 +0000

The Chinese are building pebble-bed reactors, thorium-fueled reactors, and various other types as well.

e.g. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/600757/china-could-have-a-meltdown-proof-nuclear-reactor-next-year/

It does seem quite plausible they could deliver something before EDF finishes scratching its behind.

Is Hinkley C dead?

an02ew — Tue, 08 Mar 2016 10:26:50 +0000

well at least the infrastructure has kindly been put in by EDF ready for something better than nuclear

Is Hinkley C dead?

renewablejohn — Tue, 08 Mar 2016 11:25:12 +0000

Posted By: rhamduCAT's Zero Carbon Britain plan includes synthetic gas as a way of decarbonising our huge investment in domestic gas infrastructure. We'd still be using the old pipes, boilers and cookers, but the gas would be manufactured in a process driven by renewable electricity.

I don't know if something like that would be technically or economically viable at power-station scale. Really speculating here, but one day could we go back to gas-holders as energy storage?

Synthetic and gas injection is certainly the proposed way forward as its far cheaper energy storage than the alternative battery technology and is a viable CCS technology. Also conversion of straw to gas with direct injection into the grid has been perfected so the gas in the mains will soon be a lot greener.
As for gas holders they will never return as it is very low pressure technology compared to the high pressure grid. If we need additional storage capacity then our existing North Sea gas fields can be reverse engineered to form gas reservoirs

Is Hinkley C dead?

ecohome — Wed, 09 Mar 2016 11:16:03 +0000

I really hope it is.

Haven't looked at ZCB for years, they seem to have updated somewhat http://zerocarbonbritain.org/en/zcb-publications - my favourite yearning comes via David Mackay, his http://www.withouthotair.com/. Heard him speak at a TED talk, I think his overview of how 5 different scanarios could work for Britain are brilliant. (Summary on page 212.)

Is Hinkley C dead?

bot de paille — Wed, 09 Mar 2016 20:46:05 +0000

Hinckley C is and always has been about the UKs continuing nuclear weapons programme, it wont be cancelled. EDF are sabre rattling to politically justify their slice of the pie.

Is Hinkley C dead?

renewablejohn — Wed, 09 Mar 2016 21:39:47 +0000

Posted By: ecohomeI really hope it is.

Haven't looked at ZCB for years, they seem to have updated somewhat http://zerocarbonbritain.org/en/zcb-publications - my favourite yearning comes via David Mackay, his http://www.withouthotair.com/. Heard him speak at a TED talk, I think his overview of how 5 different scanarios could work for Britain are brilliant. (Summary on page 212.)

Garbage In Garbage Out

Is Hinkley C dead?

SteamyTea — Wed, 09 Mar 2016 22:10:33 +0000

Posted By: renewablejohnGarbage In Garbage Out

Says the man who thinks that you can run a house on lawn clippings

Is Hinkley C dead?

renewablejohn — Wed, 09 Mar 2016 23:20:29 +0000

Posted By: SteamyTea
Posted By: renewablejohnGarbage In Garbage Out
Says the man who thinks that you can run a house on lawn clippings" title="">

What on earth is your problem with grass pellets.

http://biomasscenter.org/images/stories/grasspelletrpt_0111.pdf

Is Hinkley C dead?

Mike1 — Thu, 10 Mar 2016 03:07:52 +0000

Is Hinkley C should have been dead long ago.
My guess is that it will still go ahead though, unless the French Government is found to be in breach of state aid rules for buying EDF shares - unlikely, but adds an interesting twist - see http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Hinkley-N-power-station-faces-challenge-State-aid/story-28893489-detail/story.html

Is Hinkley C dead?

renewablejohn — Thu, 10 Mar 2016 08:34:55 +0000

Posted By: Mike1Is Hinkley C should have been dead long ago.
My guess is that it will still go ahead though, unless the French Government is found to be in breach of state aid rules for buying EDF shares - unlikely, but adds an interesting twist - see http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Hinkley-N-power-station-faces-challenge-State-aid/story-28893489-detail/story.html

Its a bit more complicated then that as the Finnish EPR reactor has still not been completed by Areva with massive claims against Areva leading to them having to be refinanced by surprise surprise EDF. Obviously the deal has to be ratified by the EU and you can expect Finland to object unless the claims against Areva are settled.

http://www.areva.com/EN/news-10704/two-key-stages-of-areva-s-refinancing-underway.html

Is Hinkley C dead?

adwindrum — Thu, 10 Mar 2016 10:33:43 +0000

A friend works in training for Hinckley and he is confident it will go ahead, but says the type of station is outdated already but is too far down the line to change. EDF want the Gov to chip in more as the money that is needed is way more than they can afford. The Chinese money is only a helping hand.

Is Hinkley C dead?

atomicbisf — Thu, 10 Mar 2016 11:00:10 +0000

Given how many years behind and how many billions over budget Olkiluoto 3 and Flamanville 3 are, the government must be out of their tiny minds if they really think Hinkley C is a good idea.

I suspect they know it isn't, but think there's some advantage in making a fanfare about a big project that will never actually be built (by the time it's clear it won't go ahead, it will be someone else's problem)

Is Hinkley C dead?

adwindrum — Thu, 10 Mar 2016 11:04:43 +0000

I think that one of the problems is that nuclear is so expensive that it takes so long to get off the ground making any project out of date by the time it happens. Govs know this and factor it in (Cross rail will be the same). Out of date it maybe but it will still produce a hell of a lot of power at a good price despite how high the initial fixed price seems.

Is Hinkley C dead?

fostertom — Thu, 10 Mar 2016 11:47:19 +0000

The lo-costing of distributed 'comsumer' renewables has only just begun - PV has way to go yet, with non-silicon tech; wind and GSHP awaiting real economies of scale, even ASHP; bio-digestion to follow.

All of these deliver energy 'forever' at near-zero marginal cost, once the hardware's paid for - and that on ever-shortening payback period.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Zero-Marginal-Cost-Society-Jeremy-Rifkin/dp/1137280115/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1457610318&sr=8-1&keywords=zero+marginal+rifkin

So electricity prices are going to tumble, due to exploding distributed renewables. Oil, and old centralised energy hasn't a hope of matching it, and will quickly die except for things like powering a steel plant.

Adwindrum said "it will still produce a hell of a lot of power at a good price despite how high the initial fixed price seems"

Hinkley may lumber on but its output (if it gets that far) will become increasingly uneconomic, likewise the output of e.g. gas generation that might be put on the site instead.

Is Hinkley C dead?

renewablejohn — Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:17:16 +0000

Posted By: adwindrumI think that one of the problems is that nuclear is so expensive that it takes so long to get off the ground making any project out of date by the time it happens. Govs know this and factor it in (Cross rail will be the same). Out of date it maybe but it will still produce a hell of a lot of power at a good price despite how high the initial fixed price seems.

But why pay 24bn for Nuclear when you can get the same power output from an interconnector for 4bn with an ongoing electric price one third of nuclear. Technology has moved on just let the dinosaurs die.

Is Hinkley C dead?

ringi — Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:48:50 +0000

With Nuclear the ongoing price is fixed for a long time, hence it protect us against the price of oil/gas going up.

Storage large enough to hold a few days of the UK elec usage along with interconnectors would be a game changer for renewables.

But do we trust the EU enough to depend on interconnectors ......

Is Hinkley C dead?

djh — Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:50:16 +0000

Posted By: renewablejohnBut why pay 24bn for Nuclear when you can get the same power output from an interconnector for 4bn with an ongoing electric price one third of nuclear. Technology has moved on just let the dinosaurs die.

Maybe one day Russia or somebody will decide to pay twice as much so the power won't come through the interconnector to us. (Or more realisically, 0.0001p more)

Plus whatever shenanigans our military want to play inside sealed domes?

Is Hinkley C dead?

renewablejohn — Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:15:35 +0000

Posted By: ringiWith Nuclear the ongoing price is fixed for a long time, hence it protect us against the price of oil/gas going up.

Storage large enough to hold a few days of the UK elec usage along with interconnectors would be a game changer for renewables.

But do we trust the EU enough to depend on interconnectors ......

Was not looking EU interconnectors rather Iceland and Norway all renewable with the potential of pumped storage.