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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorEdF
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2007 edited
     
    Over a year ago work started on converting my traditional Scottish 'steading' (farm outbuilding) into a house. The first builder disappeared with an advance payment for building materials and I'm suing him, an extremely drawn-out process, but that's another matter. I finally found another team of honest guys, two joiners and a brickie. The joiners thought the conversion of the stone part would be better if they built an internal wooden frame to support the roof, which was done, and the roof then went on and is complete. The building has the old stone part, which has one gable end in concrete blockwork following a runaway JCB accident which demolished the original before I bought the place, and a large kitchen/dining/utility extension on one side, again in blockwork.
    After waiting 10 weeks for the brickie to make new window openings, etc., he told us he cannot now come as he has to have a serious operation before Xmas. Hopefully he'll recover, but in the meantime another couple of guys who had just 'blocked around' a new timber framed house nearby came and surveyed the job. It's fairly straightforward, but there are two windows to go into a gable end and they weren't keen on tackling that part as the stonework is somewhat 'shaky', with 80 year old crumbly lime plaster. Also, they felt they couldn't put 'needles' through the stonework to support it while the windows go in as there's now the timber frame lining the inside. They weren't keen on giving me a price, either, and I felt they were 'talking the job up', making more of it than it was. I have two queries about this. I feel it would be far easier to rip down the stone walls and rebuild in blockwork and I think the building inspector would be okay about it - we would get a DPC where none exists in the stone walls, and more importantly, air vents in the bottom of the walls. I think I'm correct in thinking that a timber framed building has to have vents to admit air between the frame and the outer wall. It would be a horrible job trying to put vents into the stonework, which is 18 - 20 inches thick random stone, not a straight edge in any of it. The submitted plans didn't allow for a timber frame, but building control okayed it. There's just one 'regulatory' glitch, though, I only got planning permission because the building is classed as a 'redundant farm building' and at the outset I asked Planning Dept if I could rebuild the walls in stone with proper foundations, an inner blockwork leaf with air vents and a DPM and the planner said 'no', as once it was demolished it was no longer a redundant farm building... Rules is rules, never mind the common sense.. Sigh.. I have no idea how to progress this, although a bulldozer keeps coming to mind.. I suppose Planning Dept will never see the building again, but it's a bit risky to go ahead. Photo attached.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2007
     
    You can do the job without taking down the whole wall. cut out the lintel slot first and cast a new one in-situ from there it is easy.

    Alternatively you could use "strong boys" -- how wide are the new openings?

    How come you dont have hardly any eves or gable overhangs? I cant see why you need air vents?
  1.  
    Agreed, no need for air vents, or for retro-fit DPC. To be honest, to knock down the stone walls and replace with blockwork would be a monumental act of vandalism, and the antithesis of a 'green' approach. Better to work with materials that work with stone - lime-based mortars, lime and hemp render internally and breathable limecrete floors. The embodied energy is far less, you preserve an existing building and it also looks 'right' and in keeping with the local vernacular.
    I have to say that the roof does look a little odd. I've done places with walls in far worse condition; putting new sole plates and wooden ring beams in position and building a cut roof off the walls. The trouble is, there are builders and there are builders; and the average Joe likes to work on tramlines and does not want to do stuff that will take time if the job's being done on price. Thus he'll use OPC materials wherever he can, whack on a light trussed roof over a modern frame internally and then cry off when it comes to putting a couple of pins through a wall (or using strongboys). It's not a major job - I'd suggest finding a builder who can do it and then working with the planners (and particularly the local conservation officer) rather than seeing them as the enemy.
    • CommentAuthorEdF
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2007
     
    The roof looks a bit odd as the original builder ordered the trusses and they aren't right. Nothing he did was. The trusses are loft trusses so they aren't light. The original builder intended for the stone walls to support the roof whereas the roof is now held up by the new internal wooden frame, hence the gap above the side wall and the existing (scrap) windows and lintels looking too low. If I'd known that it would be timber framed before the trusses were ordered then I would have had different trusses made giving an upper floor, the ones I have are only going to provide storage space (not enough headroom). The land slopes and you're looking at the downhill side, so there's a bit of a perspective problem with the photo. The windows that can be seen are old things which are coming out as they are too small and in the wrong positions and the stoneworlk around them is a bodge-up from a previous owner. What I didn't mention in my first post is that I have had reinforced concrete window sets made in imitation stone (lintel, cill and sides) for each window going into the stone walls, with matching cills in the block walls, so casting in a lintel would make that stuff redundant and wouldn't look too good in comparison (IMHO). I have seen in a hire shop catalogue a wall support which is 'one-sided' that doesn't need needles all the way through with supports both sides, so maybe that could be used.
    My basic problem is finding someone capable of doing the work. All building trades are going flat-out up here and finding someone willing to build in stone when the big building firms are paying silly money on the estates for concrete block layers is a problem. The windows going in the gable end are 900mm wide.
    I agree that the walls, when reworked and repointed will be a feature and shouldn't be knocked down, but the building can't stay as it is indefinitely and I am trying to come up with options that will enable me to get it finished using the labour I can find. You have hit the nail on the head, it's finding someone who can do it which is my biggest problem..
    The planners are somewhat notorious here, I've been waiting well over three months for a planning opinion on a potential building plot. They are so busy they forget what they are supposed to be doing.. It's all promises to attend (when you can actually get them on the phone) but they never show up. Our building control officer, on the other hand, is great and very helpful.
    My query on the necessity (or not) of having wall air vents stems from a TV programme some years back on timber framed houses having the frames going rotten because there was no ventilation through the outer skin of concrete blocks. The brand new timber framed house which has just been built along the road has a vent about every 4ft in the outside skin. Why do you feel my old crock of a place doesn't need them? Especially as the walls have no DPC.. I have to admit I don't know the Regs. regarding it, but I'll enquire..
    Many thanks for both replies.. Ed.
  2.  
    Ouch - sounds like a not very happy relationship with first team of builders!
    If you make sure outside ground levels are below floor level, sort the drainage and guttering and repoint with a lime mortar then the outer leaf will be breathable and you shouldn't get trapped moisture, which is what knackers interior timber frames. Good luck with the planners.
    •  
      CommentAuthorbogmarsh
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2007
     
    I wonder what sort of stone it is - looks a bit like granite, which is not that absorbent, but if you are worried about damp rising through the walls, making it breathable as the previous writer says is obligatory. If you're still worried, remove the turf from around the base of the walls and replace with gravel, or something porous, to allow evaporation from a lower level. The next step. if necessary, would be a French drain. The lack of length in the eaves bothers me - you'll get more rain falling on the face of the walls than is ideal. I don't know if the eaves and/or gables could be extended at all - I'm not a roofer. As to the new windows, I don't know if the walls are mortared throughout, or are drystone inside. If they are mortared, there's not as much wall to support above a window opening as you might think - just an imaginary triangle 900 wide by the same at the apex. It's only that area of stonework that has to be supported, and even then, stone walls, if well built hang together surprisingly well, which is why strongboys would be the best bet if you can't put a prop inside the building. Would the lintel be concrete or timber, or both?
    • CommentAuthorEdF
    • CommentTimeDec 8th 2007
     
    The stone is partly granite and some other hard stone. I believe the walls are mortared right through, but it is quite crumbly. As I mentioned above, the lintels are reinforced concrete. Are these 'strongboys' the one-sided supports I've seen in a hire shop catalogue? I'm familiar with Acrow props, but that's about all. I'm not that concerned with damp going up the walls, which are remarkably dry now. When I first bought the property in 1991 it had earth quite a long way up the walls which I had cleared away and the walls gradually dried out. It's the ventilation of the frame that most concerned me. I suppose the traditional method of roofing for a vernacular building (especially a farm building) in this area is not to have overhanging eaves. I'm not intending to be in the place much longer than 10 years.. In fact I might consider selling it 'as is' such is the market and a small bare plot going for well over £100,000. It would save me a deal of trouble. Very rural, 14 miles west of Inverness with a block of three stables, and pasture negotiable..!
    •  
      CommentAuthorbogmarsh
    • CommentTimeDec 9th 2007
     
    You haven't exactly fallen in love with the place, have you?!
    • CommentAuthorEdF
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2007
     
    With a legal battle going on for over a year with a crooked builder who stole £10k from me, the second one having us wait 3 months before finding he needed a serious operation and couldn't do the work, plus the fact that I didn't want to start the job in the first place, no, I haven't!
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2007
     
    I would strongly advise NOT to take the walls down if that would breech your PP. I recall reading a post by someone on another forum that had exactly this problem. Building Control had told them they had to take a wall down because it was unsafe, they did that but before they could rebuild it the planning office cancelled their PP because the building was no longer considered a conversion but a knock down and rebuild. A new application was refused and last I heard they were going to appeal.
  3.  
    Yup, strongboys are the tray-like things that go on the top of an Acrow. They can support a surprising amount of weight and with a two-leaf rubble stone wall are ideal for fitting lintels - though you may have to 'feed' the new lintel through a narrow gap between the supporting acrow and the wall, so think carefully before positioning your props!
    •  
      CommentAuthorrichy
    • CommentTimeDec 10th 2007
     
    EDF email me on timber-works@tiscali.co.uk, I know a good builder who likes working in the Scottish countryside!
    • CommentAuthorEdF
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2007 edited
     
    I tried to email you Richy, but it was returned, address unknown.. I doubt if someone coming into the area could do a job at a reasonable price, having to find accommodation. At present I'm waiting to see if the last guy recovers from his heart bypass..
    •  
      CommentAuthorrichy
    • CommentTimeDec 12th 2007
     
    oops, dot not hyphen! my man has a motor home!
  4.  
    Hi Ed, i live 15 east of Inverness and was wondering where you got your imitation cills and lintels from, hubby is currently building an extention to our house and we are struggling to find real sandstone big enough for the cills and lintels so you imitation ones sound like a good idea. Hope you can help.
    Maureen
    eastwoodinnairn@yahoo.co.uk
    •  
      CommentAuthorDaren
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2008
     
    Irrespective of what the planners have said, it is legal to repair a wall. If you need to take down part of, or a whole wall and reconstruct it, while not increasing the footprint then the planners can't say anything.

    As a side, a good competent builder who is used to dealing with stone should be able to install these lintels.
  5.  
    Posted By: DarenIf you need to take down part of, or a whole wall and reconstruct it, while not increasing the footprint then the planners can't say anything.


    What makes you say that...? I'm not sure that's what they'd say....

    J
  6.  
    edf

    remember to treat all timber before you install it. the builders who refurbished this house before we bought it 20 years ago did not bother and now every piece of "new" timber has woodworm whereas the old timber the woodworm is dormant.As a matter of course we spray every 5 years to keep on top of the woodworm.
    •  
      CommentAuthorDaren
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2008
     
    James

    What makes you say that...? I'm not sure that's what they'd say....

    J</blockquote>

    It is not illegal to take down a wall and rebuild under planning, subject to whether the building is listed, and whether it's in a conservation area. You'll be surprised what you can do under permiited development rights. The planners have less control than you think when you are doing alterations to the building envelope (not extensions)
    •  
      CommentAuthorali.gill
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2008
     
    The planners are covering themselves after the plethora of south easters buying derelict farms knocking them down and putting up near mansions and occupying them 9 weeks a year. The problem is they dont have the time to spend helping people through projects in a similar way that the bco's will happily do.
    Daren the planning permission is granted on the basis of re-instating an existing partial structure. You are right in what you say but only so when referring to an existing or reinstated building. the danger is in giving permission for renovation of traditional stone barns, then hearing they've been ripped down and brand new structures erected in their place.

    I would imagine for a competent team you are looking at most a few weeks work to sort out the structure. So step back review what you've got and what drew you to the place. produce a free web page using google pagemaker and put up a page or two on the structure and a page on the area. Look into arranging decent accommodation or services for caravans/motorhomes, create a fire pit / barbecue area and sell the job as as a paid change of scenery for skilled workers. Ask for references, set up an account with the builders merchant and pay that directly, make sure they know its for materials only and even ask them to call you to confirm any orders over £250 are okay to go through.
    Make sure the site is clean and tidy, provide a hired toilet, and cleaning facilities, the investment will pay massive dividends in helping to find a decent few guys that will come up and do a week or two then a few long weekends.
    Once you have a few webpages up post links on here and a few other forums. Look into small works contract, employ on a labour only basis and have a solicitor hold the funds for release on completion of work stages or timescales.

    Refurbishment of barns is usually rule of thumbed at £1k m2 floor area.
    •  
      CommentAuthorali.gill
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2008
     
    If you'd phoned an architect or building surveyor and paid a small amount for a consultation, project appraisal and asked for recommendations on how to drive it forward you wouldn't be in this mess - in fact you'd probably be sitting next to a nice woodburner in a completed
    building.
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