Green Building Forum - Energy Performance Certificates

Energy Performance Certificates

lloydroutley — Mon, 01 Mar 2021 14:40:13 +0000

Hi everyone,

i am a final year Building Surveying student at UWE and am currently carrying out some research regarding Energy Performance Certificates for my dissertation. I'm looking for home owners who are interested in energy efficiency within their homes to take part in a quick survey. I would greatly appreciate anyone who can spare a few minutes to take part!

You can find the link for the survey on the consent form here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ogiiny8pymsgqkr/Dissertation%20Consent%20Form%20-%20LR.pdf?dl=0

The following links are a privacy notice for anyone concerned about the safety of their data, as well as a participation information sheet providing more information about the research.

Privacy notice - https://www.dropbox.com/s/7pg7ok26f7896gn/Dissertation%20Privacy%20notice%20for%20research%20participants%20-%20LR.pdf?dl=0

Participant info sheet - https://www.dropbox.com/s/xcp6hm442cl2iz2/Dissertation%20participant%20information%20sheet%20-%20LR.pdf?dl=0

Thank you!

Energy Performance Certificates

tony — Mon, 01 Mar 2021 20:30:44 +0000

Survey could do with a few more questions, I left one answer blank as I didnâ€™t buy my house, I built it

Energy Performance Certificates

lloydroutley — Mon, 01 Mar 2021 20:54:43 +0000

Posted By: tonySurvey could do with a few more questions, I left one answer blank as I didnâ€™t buy my house, I built it

Thanks Tony! I would have liked to have made it longer but was told to keep it to 15 questions by my supervisor. Thanks for the feedback!

Energy Performance Certificates

Jeff B — Tue, 02 Mar 2021 09:41:08 +0000

Lloyd - I have to agree with Tony's comment about needing more questions but I understand you were restricted there. Perhaps there could have been some space for "any other comments"? When I bought my house back in 2006 EPCs did not exist so the question about whether the EPC influenced my purchase I had to answer no. Today the EPC rating would be important to me but I also understand their limitations too! I had one done back in 2014 because I was applying for the RHI for a new wood pellet boiler.

Energy Performance Certificates

lloydroutley — Tue, 02 Mar 2021 11:49:00 +0000

Posted By: Jeff BLloyd - I have to agree with Tony's comment about needing more questions but I understand you were restricted there. Perhaps there could have been some space for "any other comments"? When I bought my house back in 2006 EPCs did not exist so the question about whether the EPC influenced my purchase I had to answer no. Today the EPC rating would be important to me but I also understand their limitations too! I had one done back in 2014 because I was applying for the RHI for a new wood pellet boiler.

Thanks for the feedback Jeff, definitely wish I could have made it longer as think there is a lot to be said on EPCs. I'll take that on board for my final report!

Energy Performance Certificates

Charli — Fri, 05 Mar 2021 05:06:51 +0000

I did have an EPC and it has an impact on me buying the house- but not because the EPC was good! I on purpose bought an old cold house, then did extensive renovations including energy-saving measures.

And i find EPCs rubbish- replacing 10mm of polystyrene dry lining with 90mm of PIR apparently didn't make it go up at all, because both are 'wall insulation'. But solar panels on my north-facing roof would improve the EPC, despite being useless. Sorry.. I digress...

Energy Performance Certificates

tony — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 13:58:21 +0000

LOL

Energy Performance Certificates

bxman — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 17:01:55 +0000

Hi Lloyd

In all fairness I think you should start again .

I contacted you last week and explained that I found that I had submitted without the having the opportunity complete the questions that I had passed over or to review the ones I had completed

It was my intention to view the EPC relating to my property .

When I did so I found it to be total factual incorrect even though it had apparently been recently up-dated .

A drive-by or google view would have clearly shown that EWI had been installed .

And should have also revealed that solar panels were installed and yet both were were advised as improvements

Recommendation 4: Solar photovoltaic panels, 2.5 kWp Solar photovoltaic panels Typical installation cost Â£9,000 - Â£14,000

Anyone can use -

https://find-energy-certificate.digital.communities.gov.uk/find-a-certificate/search-by-postcode
there were 2 applicable one 16 January 2018 (expired) and the other valid until 2 June 2024.

It also advises

Contacting the assessor and accreditation scheme
This EPC was created by a qualified energy assessor.

If you are unhappy about your propertyâ€™s energy assessment or certificate, you can complain to the assessor directly.

I sent an email on the 1st March.

I will hope for a response within 14 days is that reasonable ?

I have done the survey again and on this occasion I was thanked for completing the survey after 5 questions .

I am very pleased to assist on your way to a degree. But am concerned that even correlating the answers to 15 questions helps to lead to a Professional Qualification .

I feel University of the West of England Bristol should review their standards maybe .

Their reputation and yours are closely linked in my opinion .

Best of luck anyway .

Energy Performance Certificates

djh — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 18:19:58 +0000

Yes, this is ours: https://find-energy-certificate.digital.communities.gov.uk/energy-certificate/9308-7009-7367-2304-6954

Despite having 'very good' for most things, apparently just using direct electric heating is enough by itself to condemn an EPC to a C rating.

The recommendation to install solar water heating is crazy, both viewed as an investment or as a means to gain a single EPC point, but mainly because we already use PV to heat the water!

The estimated yearly energy cost is way over our actual usage, of course. EPCs are simply not designed to assess PH properly, IMHO. PHPP estimates our space heating as a bit under the EPC's water heating estimate, and that's a lot closer to reality.

Energy Performance Certificates

Jeff B — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 20:00:56 +0000

I didn't go into details about my EPC in my reply to the OP but we are rated D despite all the improvements in insulation, and having a wood pellet boiler, solar thermal and solar PV! The reason? Our Danish wood pellet boiler does not have SEDBUK accreditation so was give a generic efficiency figure of 66% despite the fact that I have a certificate from the relevant Danish authority showing it has a 92% efficiency! I haven't bothered to complain as I have no intention of selling our place any time soon but if we ever did consider doing so, then I definitely would.

Energy Performance Certificates

WillInAberdeen — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 20:10:14 +0000

I couldn't work out why the EPC of the house we bought is so good for a house that old without many improvements.

I have now realised they entered the floor area in square feet instead of square metres. So the energy use per m2 on the certificate, is about one tenth of what they should have calculated.

Either nobody noticed, or nobody cared...

Energy Performance Certificates

Mike1 — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 23:53:24 +0000

Posted By: djhapparently just using direct electric heating is enough by itself to condemn an EPC to a C rating.

... EPCs are simply not designed to assess PH properly, IMHO.

Yes, your EPC is an excellent example of that.

Lloyd, re electric heating, also see http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=16654

Energy Performance Certificates

RobL — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 16:09:24 +0000

I found a research paper titled "Building_performance_evaluation_and_certification_in_the_UK_Is_SAP_fit_for_purpose?"

I snipped out this plot from it which says it all - there's barely any correlation between SAP estimated energy cost and actual energy cost.

Maybe the score should be based on the kWh/dwelling/year, not even kWh/m^2/year and certainly not the Â£/m^2/year that SAP uses. I think there's an unproven assumption that larger dwellings house more people otherwise.

link:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232251093_Building_performance_evaluation_and_certification_in_the_UK_Is_SAP_fit_for_purpose

Energy Performance Certificates

Peter_in_Hungary — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 16:47:19 +0000

As bad as the EPC results are with respect to real life costs/usage it remains, IMO, that all the time energy reduction upgrades cost way more than any savings to be made within the normal investment time scale then energy saving is going to be a very hard sell. IMO about the only energy reduction measure that makes economic sense is to turn down the heating and put on (another) jumper.

With regard to the quoted document I note with NO surprise the graph showing residential energy use across Europe shows that the colder countries use much more than the warmer countries.

Devising a way to insulate houses in a cost effective affordable manner should be a target. And of course (with reference to another thread) better control and inspection of new build standard.

Energy Performance Certificates

tony — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 18:05:41 +0000

What a mess!

My hobby is energy use reduction and I am very pleased to see it catching on. It is an underrated sport but of crucial importance.

It is incredibly difficult to make comparisons between different homes as lifestyles, disposable income, orientation, occupancy, fuel type, hardiness, age, air tightness, insulation, demographics, and so many more variables play a part in confusing the data!

A mate of mine has looked at big data to see if EPCâ€™s improve in different districts or areas over time.

Energy Performance Certificates

lloydroutley — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 19:56:27 +0000

Posted By: bxmanHi Lloyd

In all fairness I think you should start again .

I contacted you last week and explained that I found that I had submitted without the having the opportunity complete the questions that I had passed over or to review the ones I had completed

It was my intention to view the EPC relating to my property .

When I did so I found it to be total factual incorrect even though it had apparently been recently up-dated .

A drive-by or google view would have clearly shown that EWI had been installed .

And should have also revealed that solar panels were installed and yet both were were advised as improvements

Recommendation 4: Solar photovoltaic panels, 2.5 kWp Solar photovoltaic panels Typical installation cost Â£9,000 - Â£14,000

Anyone can use -

https://find-energy-certificate.digital.communities.gov.uk/find-a-certificate/search-by-postcode" rel="nofollow" >https://find-energy-certificate.digital.communities.gov.uk/find-a-certificate/search-by-postcode
there were 2 applicable one 16 January 2018 (expired) and the other valid until 2 June 2024.

It also advises

Contacting the assessor and accreditation scheme
This EPC was created by a qualified energy assessor.

If you are unhappy about your propertyâ€™s energy assessment or certificate, you can complain to the assessor directly.

I sent an email on the 1st March.

I will hope for a response within 14 days is that reasonable ?

I have done the survey again and on this occasion I was thanked for completing the survey after 5 questions .

I am very pleased to assist on your way to a degree. But am concerned that even correlating the answers to 15 questions helps to lead to a Professional Qualification .

I feel University of the West of England Bristol should review their standards maybe .

Their reputation and yours are closely linked in my opinion .

Best of luck anyway .

Hi Patrick,

I've just e-mailed you.

I believe the survey would have ended after 5 questions due to you selecting "never been provided with an EPC". If this answer is selected it automatically ends the survey as the following questions will not be relevant to someone who's property doesn't have an EPC.

The main purpose of the survey is to develop an understanding of people's general perceptions about EPCs.

Thanks,

Lloyd

Energy Performance Certificates

djh — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 20:58:25 +0000

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryWith regard to the quoted document

Sorry, which quoted document is that?

Energy Performance Certificates

djh — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 21:01:12 +0000

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryDevising a way to insulate houses in a cost effective affordable manner should be a target. And of course (with reference to another thread) better control and inspection of new build standard.

Indeed, but it *is* cost effective to insulate new houses affordably. The point is that it isn't done! The regulations aren't strong enough and the enforcement is a bad joke.

Energy Performance Certificates

djh — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 21:02:28 +0000

Posted By: tonyA mate of mine has looked at big data to see if EPCâ€™s improve in different districts or areas over time.

Ooh, you are awful! Did s/he reach any conclusions?

Energy Performance Certificates

Peter_in_Hungary — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 21:02:34 +0000

Posted By: djh
Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryWith regard to the quoted document

Sorry, which quoted document is that?

This one

Posted By: RobLhttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/232251093_Building_performance_evaluation_and_certification_in_the_UK_Is_SAP_fit_for_purpose

Energy Performance Certificates

Peter_in_Hungary — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 21:10:39 +0000

Posted By: djh
Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryDevising a way to insulate houses in a cost effective affordable manner should be a target. And of course (with reference to another thread) better control and inspection of new build standard.

Indeed, but it *is* cost effective to insulate new houses affordably. The point is that it isn't done! The regulations aren't strong enough and the enforcement is a bad joke.

My point about "Devising a way to insulate houses in a cost effective affordable manner should be a target." was aimed at the existing housing stock which for years to come will use an order of magnitude more energy than new builds done today. That is not to say that new build gets a free pass because there are lots of (energy usage) problems with todays new builds but these are different to the issues and costs of upgrading todays existing stock - which is the majority of the housing stock.

Energy Performance Certificates

djh — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 21:15:36 +0000

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryThis one

Thanks

Energy Performance Certificates

djh — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 21:20:39 +0000

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryMy point about "Devising a way to insulate houses in a cost effective affordable manner should be a target." was aimed at the existing housing stock

Ah, OK. In many cases though that already exists. It's called EWI. What stops it is primarily a reluctance to accept that saving the planet is more important that aesthetics and secondarily the usual incompetence of government to create appropriate funding arrangements. Too many people think that preserving our heritage is actually more important than allowing our future.

Energy Performance Certificates

WillInAberdeen — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 23:20:49 +0000

EWI isn't cost effective as far as I can see... many decades to pay back :-(

Otherwise - everyone would already be doing it !!

Edit: and not affordable either. No sensible way to borrow money to do it, as it doesn't increase mortgageable value of the house.

A tube of sealant is cost effective, as is DIY loft insulation, but no other insulation or airtight measures pay back in pure financial terms AFAICS if done to legal standards (so with paid labour for most people's houses)

The government briefly seemed willing to contribute Â£5k to electroconvulse the building trade, but can't see them paying middle-class homeowners or landlords the 10s of Â£k necessary to EWI lots of people's houses, and if they did everyone else would rightfully be upset. There are many cheaper ways that government can reduce carbon.

AIUI the intent of EPCs was to allow government to force landlords and homeowners to improve existing houses at the point of lease or sale, at their own expense. It's certainly a blunt instrument.

On the plus side, they are willing to subsidise heat pumps and offshore wind farms, so a lightly-retrofitted U=0.5 house with a heatpump today, emits less than a U=0.1 passivhaus with direct electric heating did only a few years ago.

Energy Performance Certificates

djh — Mon, 08 Mar 2021 11:08:38 +0000

Posted By: WillInAberdeenEWI isn't cost effective as far as I can see

Appropriate funding is a carbon tax with the price set at the cost of extracting equivalent CO2 from free atmosphere. i.e. Make the cost of the externalities explicit.

Energy Performance Certificates

Mike1 — Mon, 08 Mar 2021 11:23:21 +0000

Posted By: WillInAberdeenEWI isn't cost effective as far as I can see...

In terms of running cost, that may be true. It would level the playing field a little if VAT on domestic energy bills was raised from 5% to 20%, and if VAT on insulation products was cut to 0%.

However that doesn't take into account the increase in property value. Research shows that energy efficient homes are generally worth significantly more on a like-for-like basis:
https://www.enterprise.cam.ac.uk/news/the-link-between-energy-efficiency-and-property-values/#

Energy Performance Certificates

WillInAberdeen — Mon, 08 Mar 2021 11:50:31 +0000

I just sold a house, rented a house and bought a house. The EPCs and the actual energy performance made not a jot of difference to any of the prices, despite me challenging this with all three sets of agents, and two of the EPCs being laughably obviously wrong :-(

So spending Â£20k on EWI would not increase the valuation by Â£20k so would not be mortgageable.

The carbon price is definitely the long term way to go but would have to be applied to all energy purchases, not just heating costs for secondhand houses, otherwise would be easy for everyone to dodge it. The government would have to get braver to put up energy prices at the moment (see recent budget announcement re not raising fuel duty).

If gas heating carried a carbon price of say Â£100 per tonne of CO2 on an intensity of 250g/kWh, it would add 2.5p/kWh to the cost of heating, so still nowhere near enough to pay for EWI. Direct electric heating is less intensity, so less add-on cost, and fossil electricity already includes some carbon pricing. Heat pump heat would have even less carbon price so even less incentive to pay for EWI. :-(

Energy Performance Certificates

Peter_in_Hungary — Mon, 08 Mar 2021 12:09:49 +0000

The problem with taxing energy (fuel) to drive reduction in use and make insulation (e.g.EWI) cost effective is that the well off will continue to ignore the problem and the those in fuel and food poverty will suffer even more.
Put a carbon tax on gas and the fixed income owner/occupier pensioner will get screwed, move closer to supplementary benefit and still won't be able to reduce usage or pay for improvements to do the same.

Forcing land lords to meet higher standards of energy efficiency (please include all landlords, public and private) will only serve to put up rents when a lot of those renting already struggle with living cost anyway.

I can't see a solution, easy or otherwise without massive government intervention on the lines of the cost of COVID, but taking insulation materials out of the VAT system would help those sitting on the fence about insulating.

Energy Performance Certificates

Simon Still — Mon, 08 Mar 2021 12:15:33 +0000

Posted By: Mike1
... EPCs are simply not designed to assess PH properly, IMHO.

Not just PH, but seem to completely fail to differentiate between something that just about met building regs in the last few decades and something built way beyond that to PH standards (or close to them).

Looking quickly at listings seems to show a stack of victorian terraced houses (solid uninsulated walls, minimal airtightness, gas boilers, double glazing) getting a C. But it seems almost impossible to get an A - a friend with a near passive, energy neutral (via solar), ground source heating still falls short.

Energy Performance Certificates

Mike1 — Mon, 08 Mar 2021 13:20:50 +0000

Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryForcing land lords to meet higher standards of energy efficiency (please include all landlords, public and private) will only serve to put up rents when a lot of those renting already struggle with living cost anyway.

France are starting to do just that!

Specifically, from 2023 it will be illegal for landlords to offer for rent a home with a an EPC forecasting an energy requirement of >450kWh / mÂ² (estimated at around 90,000 homes, 70,000 of them privately owned). From 2025 it applies to all homes with a G rated EPC. It's likely to be extended to those with an F EPC from 2028 - a total of 4.8 million homes.

EPCs will also come with an energy bill forecast, which must be included in rental adverts from 2022. Tennants will be able to get their own EPC and, if it's worse than the landlord's, will be able to claim compensation. Landlords, in turn, will be able to claim compensation from their EPC provider.

The results will be interesting.