Tue, 19 Dec 2023 04:20:09 +0000 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303220#Comment_303220 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303220#Comment_303220 Tue, 12 Sep 2023 16:48:09 +0100 Artiglio
The block consists of 6 flats, 4 have combi boilers, 2 have conventional heating/dhw boilers. The block has two cold water storage tanks in a rooftop tank room. When the council changed their 4 flats over to combis, they didn’t remove the dead legs created in the feed pipes from the tanks nor reduce the size of the storage tanks. ( they claim that the cold tanks also feed toilets and cold taps in the flats, certainly doesn’t in my flat but can’t say for others but very unlikely).

Annual checks on the tanks are perfectly reasonable to which i’m liable for my share, checks on hot water temp and cold supply under hse guidance is acceptable annually and is easily done at the same time as the gas cert. However the council is saying that the block also needs testing of “Sentinel” outlets on a monthyl basis if they can get access. Frommwhat i can see from a web search sentinel points are hot outlets associated with recirculating hot water systems not closed domestic systems.
My council is well known for cosy deals and handing out a contract to check temperatures monthly is just gold plating and will be very unlikely to happen, the charge for this on my block of 6 is £117.50 a month their are 3 such blocks in the building. Nice little job if you can get it.
Is my understanding of “sentinel “ correct ? As the water is heated within the flat, it surely falls into the domestic scope.

Any help appreciated.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303223#Comment_303223 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303223#Comment_303223 Tue, 12 Sep 2023 20:58:37 +0100 djh
I'd never heard of sentinel taps before; as you say they seem to be used in larger commercial systems rather than domestic ones. FWIW, we do run each of our taps once a month or so just to make sure there isn't water standing in the pipes for long periods. If the tanks are on the rooftop, do they stay below 20°C in summer?]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303225#Comment_303225 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303225#Comment_303225 Tue, 12 Sep 2023 21:27:51 +0100 Artiglio HSE guidance for domestic properties is as you do to run any outlets that may not have been used for a while. The tanks on the roof (i’m pretty sure) now only feed two flats that have retained conventional heating systems, the water only gets used for DHW and gets heated to 60 degrees , in my flat the setting on the tank and outlet temps are checked each year when the gas cert is done.
For what the council have spent on the tanks and the gold plated testing over tha last few years they could have made a reasonable contribution to the two leaseholders costs in getting them to change to combis and be quids in going forward and drained and isolated the tanks. I’ve asked for a copy of the latest risk assessment so maybe that will explain things.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303472#Comment_303472 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303472#Comment_303472 Fri, 22 Sep 2023 00:11:52 +0100 Artiglio Assessment clearly states that the hot water systems are not circulatory and that sentinel testing is not applicable in this instance. Of course the council could choose to gold plate the legionella measures they undertake. The assessment recommends annual temperature checks, which would most efficiently be undertaken at the same time as the gas safety check, when it would also be a good time to check any internal smoke/ heat alarms. But joined up thinking is not one of my councils strong points.

And to top it off when i’ve asked for more detail of the charges on my statement they tell me that the monthly temperature checks are for 2023/24, which is odd as the statement is for 2022/3.

I’ve previously been assure the council staff are “ highly trained professionals”, i beg to differ.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303511#Comment_303511 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303511#Comment_303511 Sun, 24 Sep 2023 19:45:53 +0100 revor Posted By: ArtiglioI’ve previously been assure the council staff are “ highly trained professionals”, i beg to differ.

We have those as well, allegedly.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303651#Comment_303651 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303651#Comment_303651 Mon, 02 Oct 2023 18:55:14 +0100 jamesingram http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303652#Comment_303652 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303652#Comment_303652 Mon, 02 Oct 2023 19:47:49 +0100 Mikel
See FOI response from Health Protection Scotland:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/135812/response/335799/attach/3/FOI%20480737%20response.doc?cookie_passthrough=1

3 cases in 2009 probably linked to domestic hot water systems.]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303655#Comment_303655 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303655#Comment_303655 Mon, 02 Oct 2023 22:02:46 +0100 Artiglio
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5fe47a70d3bf7f08945c058b/Legionella_Mthly_Rprt-Aggregate_rprt_Jan-Oct20.pdf

But definitive links to domestic domestic systems are vanishingly rare , which given the 20 odd million homes in the uk , the majority of which have no risk assessments , really suggests it’s not an issue. And where a link is indicated there seems to be no mention of how the householders heated/ stored their hot water or the general levels of cleaning/ hygiene in the homes.

There used to be a system volume below which premises were exempt from the legislation ( 300 litres springs to mind and about 15 years ago) which basically meant most homes weren’t included, for some reason this was removed in a review. As a result a whole new industry has grown, innthe example that started this thread, the over reach, gold plating and unchecked assertions are quite astounding. Plus the errors in the report. The costs come out at around £200 a year per unit in this block, extrapolate that across the roughly 3500 properties my council has and it’s 700k . IF that was across the whole social and private rented sector it’d be 1.6 billion to prevent a handful of infections a year. Which could even then be a result of poor cleaning or temperatures being reduced , by tenants.

Edit, also came across this,

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5abce666ed915d44e8dfa912/2016_Annual_Report_final.pdf]]> http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303671#Comment_303671 http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=17948&Focus=303671#Comment_303671 Tue, 03 Oct 2023 15:47:55 +0100 djh