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Energy Assessment: Why dont all building inspectors use thermal imaging cameras?

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    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2012
     
    Robin raised an interesting point on the external insulation thread that got me thinking

    Why dont all building inspectors use thermal imaging cameras?

    From inside with heating on it would be very valuable (generally horrifying) to see the real insulation picture.
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2012
     
    Why? they'd all be on anti-depressants. Seriously I like your idea Tony.
  3.  
    ''Why dont all building inspectors use thermal imaging cameras?''

    I'd say ''and get fully trained to use'' as well. I freely admit I did not get the best out of the IR camera I borrowed as I did not fully understand how to calibrate it.

    Would not ambient temps have a bearing on this? Fine for winter jobs, but what about ones completed in the warmer weather? Still vs windy days, as well. Bearing in mind that for a lot of (Building Notice) jobs (in my experience), BCO involvement is limited to one visit while the work is part-complete, I am not sure how a more comprehensive, checking, service can be provided without extra cost. (On the other hand, if doing it without additinal cost lets through sub-standard jobs, then I'll pay the additional cost.

    I can think of at least a couple of jobs I have been asked to look at in the last year which would almost certainly lead to a worrying IR image.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 10th 2012
     
    Leave final inspection until heating is on and say 8C or more warmer inside than outside = no extra cost.
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeNov 1st 2012
     
    Of course, a good BCO's aim is to nip trouble in the bud. Heat cameras will only reveal faults when it's probably too late to rectify them easily. Clients denied signoff, builders getting sued or hauled back to tear a finished building apart... it's not ideal. But it could make builders and clients alike take thermal performance more seriously.
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2012
     
    Tony - Why do building control care?

    Sounds like a flippant questions, but from what I have seen, as long as the drains and foundations are signed off, and the building is standing at the time of sign off, that is about all they really care about.

    Most BCOs don't have the time or knowledge to get into this type of detail.
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeNov 2nd 2012
     
    Posted By: Timber
    Most BCOs don't have the time or knowledge to get into this type of detail.


    Nail on the head moment Timber:jumping:

    The answer is not to buy from big building companies but to use a local firm with a good reputation that work within the area.

    Jonti
  8.  
    I've thought the same, so was interested to see this article on Treehugger.com, http://www.treehugger.com/green-architecture/thermographic-camera-google-street-view-essess-does-it-work.html, raises some key points:

    The amount of heat that moves through a wall is dependent on the temperature difference between inside and out. How do you know the heat loss without knowing the temperature inside the house?

    In a drive-by, the camera is looking at the front of the house. How can you judge without knowing what is happening on the other five faces (three other sides, floor and roof)?

    What if people are having a party vs going to bed early? Conditions inside could be completely different.

    Of the three kinds of heat loss, conductive, convective and radiant, it’s radiant that makes the pretty colored windows and walls (and is the most expensive to fix) , but it is convective, through air leaks, that causes the most heat loss. How do you measure leaky ducts vs leaky walls?

    Different materials look completely different on a thermographic image. A stucco on block house will look totally different than a stucco on styrofoam. How do you distinguish?

    How many days per year in most of the country do get enough of a temperature difference for the camera even to get a decent picture?

    People make choices, say those who live in old houses. What if they have a super-efficient heat pump or no air conditioning to compensate for the fact that they want to preserve what they have? How can you possibly figure out the cost of heating the house (as shown in the screenshot below) without knowing what kind of heating and cooling system is in the house?

    I guess one solution to a lot of these very valid points is to compare one house to one of similar construction that is next to it !
    - but that might not be possible !
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: SilverSprayI guess one solution to a lot of these very valid points is to compare one house to one of similar construction that is next to it !
    - but that might not be possible !
    What you can do is use national data to estimate pretty closely the internal temperatures, construction type/SAP from records, local energy usage from regional data etc, local weather data is easily available. Will not tell you exactly what an individual house is doing but can get a lot of useful information nevertheless.

    I live in a terrace of 4 houses, with another two that are identical in size but semi's. I bet we all have different energy usages, all pay different amounts, all have different heating levels/lifestyles/occupancy habits, but I suspect that it would give a good snapshot of local energy use for this type of house construction.
    One thing that is problematic though is the floor to surface area ratio, something that I am trying to establish from the domestic energy monitoring thread we have running, my house looks dreadful, but I am still one of the lowest overall energy users (one has an ST system fitted that skews the figures).

    If you plot SAP against year of construction (could probably do the same with EPC/Year, you get a fairly good fit when you account for the step changes when BR change.
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2012
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: SilverSpray</cite>I guess one solution to a lot of these very valid points is to compare one house to one of similar construction that is next to it !</blockquote>

    But if all the neighbours are at my party that won't work!
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2012
     
    But Silver Spray, I think Tony's point is that BCOs could/should use thermal imaging to detect faulty construction, not to compare houses.

    Posted By: SilverSprayOf the three kinds of heat loss, conductive, convective and radiant, it’s radiant that makes the pretty colored windows and walls (and is the most expensive to fix) , but it is convective, through air leaks, that causes the most heat loss. How do you measure leaky ducts vs leaky walls?

    Won't leaks often show as hotspots on the outside or coldspots¹ on the inside, anyway?

    Posted By: rhamduOf course, a good BCO's aim is to nip trouble in the bud. Heat cameras will only reveal faults when it's probably too late to rectify them easily. Clients denied signoff, builders getting sued or hauled back to tear a finished building apart... it's not ideal.

    Finding problems late is, indeed, not ideal. Doesn't mean we should just turn a blind eye, though. Finding them late is better than not finding them at all.

    ¹ Why does my spellchecker accept “hotspots” but flag “coldspots”?
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeNov 7th 2012
     
    Posted By: Ed Davies
    ¹ Why does my spellchecker accept “hotspots” but flag “coldspots”?


    Because hotspot is an actual word and coldspot isn't.
    • CommentAuthorohansen
    • CommentTimeDec 25th 2012
     
    See my post here:
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=3746

    I personally think a thermal imaging survey should be an absolute requirement for any new residential property. Sure, it has to be done on a cold day, but a compulsory survey done within a year and the builder being obliged to remediate any issues uncovered by the survey are in my opinion such obvious things to do that it puzzles me that they're not done.

    We now have a warm and cozy house thanks to a fair bit of effort in the areas pinpointed by our thermal survey. Yes some were blindingly obvious (like air leaks under skirting boards). However others were not, but the survey told us for example the exact piece of plasterboard that I had to cut through to fix missing/sagging insulation.

    I really, really don't understand why people are skeptical about thermal surveys.
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeDec 25th 2012
     
    I don't think people are (I certainly am not) skeptical about thermal imaging surveys, it is just more a matter of if a BCO is the right person to do it.

    And knowing big house builders, there is NO WAY that a year after the building is complete and handed over and people are living in it, are they going to move out the occupant an rip it all apart to fix a blue spot on a picture! Hell, it can be almost impossible to get them to come and complete snagging of things like paint and skirting board!!!

    Now, if it was mandated and part of regs then fine, they would have to do it, and it wouldn't take long for builders to get the message. That would lead to better buildings for everyone. BUT DCLG can't even implement simple regulation changes without balls-ing it up. Plus they are all about not increasing regulatory burden, therefore I can only assume that in the short term (10 years) it won't happen in the mainstream.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2012
     
    A very sad state of affairs that then.
    • CommentAuthorTimber
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2012
     
    Agreed
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2012
     
    Just out of interest, has there been any checks done into PH builds 5 years after completion?

    Jonti
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2012
     
    Yes and after longer periods but they do not use thermal imaging relying on good control and attention to detail.
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2012
     
    Well it would be interesting if those surveys on PH used thermal imaging. Sauce for the goose....
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeDec 26th 2012
     
    I only ask because of problems with shrinkage of certain types of insulation and the habit for buildings to move. Tony, good control and attention to detail are essential during the build but no guarantee for longevity. As RobinB say 'Sauce for the goose...'

    You say there have been control surveys done. So what was the airtight efficiency after 5 years and longer?

    Jonti
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 27th 2012
     
    Air tightness has always been known to get worse during the first years, in the case of PH this is not a big problem as they are very nicely airtight compared to the norm here, our homes are so air leaky that we don't even notice the degradation.
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeDec 27th 2012
     
    Tony,

    I agree with all you say in the last comment but for PH air-tightness is such a big issue and even a slight degradation could have major implications. I just question the PH concept of main structure lasting 60 years against what seems to be significant failings in the form of shrinkage in certain types of insulation materials. Do we really know what is happening where we cannot see.

    If I go to all the trouble and costs of designing and building a PH with the inevitable compromises that come with that I would want to know that in 15 years it will still perform pretty damn close to the original specs especially without a back up heating system.


    Jonti
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 27th 2012
     
    Me too, I saved the PH fees and spent them on more insulation and better detailing :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 27th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: tonyinsulation and better detailing
    Works every time. The KISS concept.
    • CommentAuthorPingy
    • CommentTimeJan 1st 2013
     
    Tony, have you considered doing another airtightness test on your house? We'd be very interested to see how it compares to the original.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 1st 2013
     
    Me too, but at Ă‚ÂŁ300 I can't see it happening, I do keep filling tiny gaps and cracks and found five 15mm holes to outside in the back of my shutter control boxes, so I am hopeful of no deterioration.

    I often dream of simple quick air tightness testing as a business model but am getting lazy now.
  27.  
    I wonder if I (or anybody else) could get our builders to sign up to:

    - during and at the end of the project thermal image shots to improve the build quality (they should appreciate what is learnt for their own future project delivery)

    - 2, 3, 5 or even 10 years in a bonus or with held payment being released if the building still achieves the same (or within 5% ?) of the origional air test result.

    But are these just ways of measuring what should already be done ?
    - the above comment that "insulation is better than detailing" and the KISS concept.

    While I don't disagree, I can't be the first person who's not built before, so an objective way to measure the current and on-going efficiency of the building and to place this responsibility with the builder(s) seems a good idea. They only stand to loose if they don't have faith in their own work ?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2013
     
    Posted By: SilverSprayso an objective way to measure the current and on-going efficiency of the building and to place this responsibility with the builder(s) seems a good idea
    The first bit is easy to do, just sling in a monitor with a simple 'idiots guide' to what it is showing. The second bit will involve a court case and will not save anything as builders, just like the rest of us, place a higher value on cash today than cash tomorrow.
    • CommentAuthorSilverSpray
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaThe second bit will involve a court case and will not save anything as builders, just like the rest of us, place a higher value on cash today than cash tomorrow.


    So you'd need to make the amount of with-held cash enough to make them focus on it. Otherwise, yes, the court fees would make it useless.

    In terms of monitoring the building, external temp Vs internal temp (humidity for both too ?) and then measure the number of units of external energy being used and any other life style changes (change in number of people in the house etc ?).
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 3rd 2013
     
    We are almost starting to talk about MOT tests for buildings, Feel another thread coming on....

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