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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008 edited
     
    I was out at the barn this am with a builder who first saw it about 20 months ago

    He reckons that the cracks have got substantially worse and that there are really issues with it's stability - he won't touch it unless we get a structural engineer out to look at it asap

    What is my position with planning about this?

    If they have given permission to convert - will I need additional permission to pull down & rebuild or will it be OK?

    Everytime I get anywhere I seem to get kicked in the teeth with this - maybe I should just give up
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008 edited
     
    You probably do need a SE asap: Especially if it really is moving. However, people often think that cracks are getting bigger when they see them for the second time: There is a small device that you can place on a wall to measure movement that your SE may think worthwhile.

    You probably need to talk to a SE first, then Planning second depending on findings. If you don't know of SE's in your area, let me know and I'll give you a few numbers. Probably best to talk to your architect first about finding one as he may have a preference.
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    20 months ago - you couldn't see the light through the cracks - today he can put his hand through

    I think it is moving - the floor also has a crack that wasn't there before

    We wanted to knock it down & start again but planning said no
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    PP for a conversion is not the same as PP for a demolish and rebuild. If you take it down they can say you are in breach of your original PP. I was reading of a case where Building Control told the owner of a barn that it would have to be knocked down. They did that and were then told by the planners that -"since the barn no longer exists it cannot be converted as per the original PP". The planners actually withdrew the original PP and told the owners they would have to submit an fresh application for a new build. They went on to say that since it was in the countryside, a new build application was likely to be refused !

    Get your barn propped up so it can't fall down and have an SE come and advise you on what steps need to be taken to reinforce it. I would avoid approaching the planners for new PP unless you really really have to. My architect lives in a barn conversion and when he purchased it the place was leaning over badly. They had to use chains to pull it back upright before it could be reinforced with new timber. They are surprisingly strong. If you really have to take it down under no circumstances do so until you get your PP amended in writing.

    Good luck.
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    It's not likely that you would be given permission to rebuild if they have already said no

    So you will need to preserve the structure of the barn (probably)

    Is it a typical Norfolk timber barn? Have you put a thread up anywhere showing a photograph?
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    Gosh no

    It's concrete block & asbestos cement roof
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    Asbestos will cost you a bucket load to demolish: However, it is very likely to become even more expensive in the future and may have liability of use issues in the coming decades.

    If cracks are developing, there may be an issue with your soil: This may lead to underpinning. Unfortunately, in general, Norfolk is not known for having good soils.

    If you can put up a photograph, it may help us to see what it is you are looking at
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    Here
      Barn v2.JPG
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    Well that didn't work
    • CommentAuthorGBP-Keith
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    Why is this in the commercial build section Katy? Are you trying to get permission for change of use?
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    Try again
      Small Pic.JPG
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    It's my nursery.......It's being going on for ages

    I have permission to alter it and open as a nursery
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    Sorry Keith - I just put it in commercial because it is going to be a commercial building
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    :shamed:

    I just looked - 9 out of the 16 threads in commercial are about my nursery - sorry
    • CommentAuthorGBP-Keith
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    No worries Katy. Glad to see someone filling it up!
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    I guess you title is better

    But mine expressed exactly how I was feeling
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    But at least mine got people talking to me:cry:
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    With this type of building, it is unlikely to be a stability issue. Unfortunately (perhaps) it is more likely to prove to be a settlement problem.

    Do you have a photo looking on a side wall?
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    No

    But their is a pier (is that the right word) down from the centre of the gable with a window to the right

    From the roofline to the floor is cracked - generally on the mortor line next to the gable
    Then on the other side of the window the crack is from roofline to window top

    The on the long wall there are crack across the corner & another crack from floor up to the window & pier on that wall

    The builder was discussing the close proximity of ploughing at that corner - about 18inches outside the building
    • CommentAuthorcaliwag
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    I thought you'd found an architect Katy...get him/her along pronto...he/she will know who to talk to...engineers and in planning.
    • CommentAuthorchuckey
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    Katymac, I would say that as the building is a barn, it was built without foundations to speak off and the compaction caused by the farm machinery is causing settlement. It is very unlikely that it will fall down, lightweight roof, steel roof girder construction, block walls built on a flat piece of ground. As a check, put a spirit level up the sides of the walls to see if they are leaning.
    Round here they build these things with the steel work going into a 18" cube of concrete with its top level with the ground and the walls are built on 6" deep strips of concrete between the "foundation" blocks, no tying in at all. And not to mention no compacting of the soil under/around the foundations. And that is OKed by the local BC.
    Frank
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2008
     
    Have emailed him Caliwag - but it is Saturday evening after all

    I was just gutted and needing of support

    I think the barn is going to have to come down

    I am really gutted by it
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2008
     
    To lower your professional costs:

    1: On the gable and side wall: Arrange a small hand-dig to the base of the foundation *before* your SE arrives
    2: Photograph the building as much as you can now for information to send to any SE that gives you a price

    Barns do and did not have the same level of design standard that would be applied to most other buildings. It would not be that uncommon to find that there are no foundations: If your foundations (which could be a block laid on its side) proves to be a few hundred mm below ground and you know that ploughing has gone on in the locality, make sure that you bring this to the SE's attention.

    Taking the barn down would be a mistake at this stage. Wait for the SE's report.

    Good luck
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2008
     
    Thanks Jon

    I was emailed by the architect this morning (which I was very impressed by)

    He thinks it will be OK - it's not a surprise to him & he has put some under pinning in at that corner in the plans (apparently)
    • CommentAuthorjon
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2008
     
    Emailed today! That's very impressive. Can you tell me who the architect was?
    •  
      CommentAuthorKatymac
    • CommentTimeFeb 26th 2008
     
    & surprise surprise - these builders have dropped out of the tender - so I am still one builder short
    • CommentAuthorTheDoctor
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2008
     
    not all architects are 9 to 5'ers......
  1.  
    Posted By: TheDoctornot all architects are 9 to 5'ers......


    You mean you know some who are....?

    J
    •  
      CommentAuthorDaren
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2008
     
    Katymac,

    Before you start any of the "conversion works", carry out repair works to the barn in accordance with a structural engineers details, and before submitting your b'regs application. This is all repair and completely legal as the building is still a barn. Even keep the roof on while your doing it.
    Once the "repair" works are complete and the building is sound, you can carry out the conversion works.

    Daren
  2.  
    Katymac

    Is that ivy creeping up the wall if so I would get rid of it as it can damage the walls with its aerial roots and the foundations with its roots.
   
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