Green Building Forum - This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

owlman — Thu, 24 Mar 2022 17:02:53 +0000

One of my big cribs regarding the latest rush to convert homes to Air to water, ( A/W ), heat pump usage was the seeming exclusion of Air to Air, ( A/A ), in the overall strategy.
The heat pump industry itself was perhaps somewhat to blame in that it continued to label A/A as Aircon, a more canny approach from this industry may have been to label them as " air source reverse cycle heat pump " which may have got them included in the initial heat pump plan.

I came across this recently from BESA :-

APPLICABLE VAT RATE ON HEAT PUMP INSTALLATIONS
The purpose of this technical bulletin is to advise members of changes to the VAT rate
announced in the Chancellorâ€™s Spring Statement of 23rd March 2022.
1. BACKGROUND
In July 2014 HMRC introduced a scheme for applying a reduced rate of VAT of 5% on energy
saving materials and heating equipment. It followed on from the enhanced capital allowances list of
previous years whereby heating equipment which featured on that list could have a 5% VAT rate
applied when the products were installed in domestic situations. The move was designed to
encourage the uptake of energy efficient heating systems such as heat pumps in retrofit
applications.
In October 2019 the rules were subtly changed to incorporate a â€œ60% testâ€ that must be applied for
the reduced rate to be used if certain social policy conditions are not met.
The Spring Statement of 23rd March 2022 has reversed that 2019 ruling as from 1st April 2022
meaning that the social conditions and 60% requirements no longer apply at all. This has been
implemented to incentivize homeowners to install energy saving heating materials as part of a
wider package of Government measures targeted at improving energy efficiency and driving the
decarbonisation of heat agenda.
The zero rating applies to installations of these products and therefore cannot be applied by sellers
of equipment only.
At this moment in time the zero rating can only be used by contractors in Great Britain as the EU
need to agree to this move for Northern Ireland. HMRC assured us that they are working on this
being a UK wide initiative as soon as possible.

2. VAT NOTICE 708/6 â€“ CONFUSION OVER DEFINTIONS1
In February 2021 an amendment to clause 2.17 Air source heat pumps was made to correct a
mistake where air source heat pumps of the split air conditioning type had been specifically ruled
out from the scheme. There remained a large element of confusion across the sector, however,
and the issue persisted. After extensive talks between the BESA and HMRC the guidance has
been updated to clarify the applicability rules and allow air source reverse cycle heat pump air
conditioners in the same way it applies for monoblock heat pumps.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

djh — Thu, 24 Mar 2022 21:21:18 +0000

Hmm, so apart from the requirement to use a contractor to install it we're home free? I can install A/A VAT free from April? I'll have to look at the piggy bank!

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

WillInAberdeen — Fri, 25 Mar 2022 09:35:56 +0000

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-the-vat-treatment-of-the-installation-of-energy-saving-materials-in-in-great-britain/the-value-added-tax-installation-of-energy-saving-materials-order-2022

Seems like great news! The "60% rule" has been ditched, and VAT cut to zero on all kinds of stuff like insulation and solar panels and ASHP/GSHPs.

Edit: surprised they haven't made more of a show about this - people have been complaining for years about the VAT disparity between new-build vs retrofitting and this has gone a long way toward fixing that. As before, if you are adding insulation you can claim 0% VAT on all sorts of incidental stuff like plasterboarding and redecorating. Only regret is it doesn't apply to DIY.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

Mike1 — Fri, 25 Mar 2022 15:40:32 +0000

Posted By: WillInAberdeenVAT cut to zero on all kinds of stuff like insulation and solar panels and ASHP/GSHPs

Yes, a step forwards for those who can afford to take action. In many cases still cheaper to pay the tax and DIY it, for those who can.

But it still requires a proper grant scheme for those who can't afford the work. The new (2021+) French scheme would be good. A single-household earning < â‚¬20 593 gets up to 90% of the cost paid by the Government (with a sliding scale to 40% for middle incomes) on pretty much anything - energy audits, insulation, heat pumps, high-efficiency boilers, PV, MVHR, district heating connections, double glazing, car chargers - capped at â‚¬20,000 every 5 years. With applications turned around within 2 weeks and up-front payments for those on the lowest incomes. Plus the option of a 20-year zero-interest loan up to â‚¬50,000, subject to the work undertaken.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

TimSmall — Fri, 25 Mar 2022 16:31:18 +0000

[deleted]

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

djh — Fri, 25 Mar 2022 17:07:08 +0000

Posted By: Mike1But it still requires a proper grant scheme for those who can't afford the work. The new (2021+) French scheme would be good. A single-household earning < â‚¬20 593 gets up to 90% of the cost paid by the Government (with a sliding scale to 40% for middle incomes) on pretty much anything - energy audits, insulation, heat pumps, high-efficiency boilers, PV, MVHR, district heating connections, double glazing, car chargers - capped at â‚¬20,000 every 5 years. With applications turned around within 2 weeks and up-front payments for those on the lowest incomes. Plus the option of a 20-year zero-interest loan up to â‚¬50,000, subject to the work undertaken.

Is there an easy to read explanation of how it is all financed anywhere? I'm interested to know how places fund schemes like this when we always seem to tangle ourselves up in knots.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

owlman — Sat, 26 Mar 2022 11:44:24 +0000

Posted By: djh
............ I'm interested to know how places fund schemes like this when we always seem to tangle ourselves up in knots.

+1 Especially when you look at countries with broadly similar GDPs. You have to ask yourself where do the major financial differences lay.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

Mike1 — Sun, 27 Mar 2022 16:12:30 +0100

Posted By: djhIs there an easy to read explanation of how it is all financed anywhere? I'm interested to know how places fund schemes like this when we always seem to tangle ourselves up in knots.

The funding body is the 'Agence nationale de l'habitat' (National Housing Agency) - with a status roughly similar to an Executive Agency in the UK - dedicated to implementing policies to improve privately-owned housing, whether owner-occupied or rented. Its origins can be traced back to post-war reconstruction.

There's a leaflet (in French, but lots of graphics) on expenditure here: https://www.anah.fr/fileadmin/anah/Mediatheque/Publications/Les_chiffres_cles/ChiffresCles2021.pdf (short version version, in 2021: 3.11Bâ‚¬ spent on 751,646 renovations)

And a page on funding sources here: https://www.anah.fr/qui-sommes-nous/budget-2021/
(short version, in 2021: direct Government funding + income from the auction of carbon credits + funding from energy suppliers + income from a tax on vacant housing + various other minor sources). Though not clear how they covered their significant overspend - more from the Government, perhaps.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

neelpeel — Mon, 28 Mar 2022 09:27:59 +0100

So I assume it's therefore likely that A/A pumps will also be covered in the Clean Heat Grant (RHI scheme replacement - and also called the 'Boiler Upgrade Scheme') from April onwards?

I thought this was going to be perfect timing for me then I read that this scheme will not be available in Scotland. Humff. Good for some though...

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/check-if-you-may-be-eligible-for-the-boiler-upgrade-scheme-from-april-2022

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

WillInAberdeen — Mon, 28 Mar 2022 10:45:46 +0100

Fit like the day,

https://www.homeenergyscotland.org/find-funding-grants-and-loans/interest-free-loans/detail/

Seems that Scot gov will lend up to Â£10k for heatpumps and then convert 75% of that to a grant. Not sure about A-A.

There is actually a lot of funding available in UK through random council grants, gov schemes, energy company obligations etc but it's difficult to find info in one place of what's available.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

neelpeel — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 14:42:56 +0100

Posted By: WillInAberdeenFit like the day,

https://www.homeenergyscotland.org/find-funding-grants-and-loans/interest-free-loans/detail/" rel="nofollow" >https://www.homeenergyscotland.org/find-funding-grants-and-loans/interest-free-loans/detail/

Seems that Scot gov will lend up to Â£10k for heatpumps and then convert 75% of that to a grant. Not sure about A-A.

There is actually a lot of funding available in UK through random council grants, gov schemes, energy company obligations etc but it's difficult to find info in one place of what's available.

Nae bad manny. Thanks for the heads up. I spotted that before but saw the word 'Loan' and promptly ignored!
Unfortunately that homeenergyscotland website suggests No to A/A...
" - Heat pumps (either air source to water, ground source to water, water source to water or hybrid air source to water): Â£10,000 (Â£2,500 loan plus up to Â£7,500 cashback)"

Maybe it will be updated in line with the HMRC guidelines at some point.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

minisaurus — Sun, 10 Apr 2022 14:38:02 +0100

Posted By: djh... I'm interested to know how places fund schemes like this when we always seem to tangle ourselves up in knots.

The UK (especially English government) cannot do effective bureaucracy. I've lived in UK, France, now Sweden. UK public admin always overcomplicates everything - Ukraine refugees the latest sorry example - plus UK govt always keeps most of the money central, where it gets spent on building and dismantling bureaucratic systems.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

WeeBeastie — Tue, 13 Dec 2022 11:34:55 +0000

Resurrecting this to let anyone interested know that Scotland's grant scheme does not include air-to-air. I have just contacted them to ask. Apparently the grants are for heating, whereas A/A is 'more like air conditioning'. This really needs updating.

I also asked about grants for EWI. Yes, these are available but of course you have to use an installer registered with Green Deal, though you are not limited to which materials you can use. The problem here is that there are very few such installers north of Scotland's central belt, and many of these are only doing work on large scale, such as retrofitting council properties.

It's a welcome scheme but not (yet?) supported with a network of installers.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

malakoffee — Mon, 19 Dec 2022 11:39:55 +0000

I have had an Air 2 Air Heatpump installed recently. I'm still experimenting with it w.r.t. balancing its usage with Gas CH and a logburner.
As one would expect, the two week spell of sub-zero temperature, made it work a lot harder & I tried to avoid it hitting the defrost cycle ( manual on/off ) + gas + logs . . .

The Installer initially put VAT on the Quotation, but agreed to remove it after I emailed this :
>>
Zero VAT ?
My amateur research suggests YES : . . . . . see section : 2.18 of . . .
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-on-energy-saving-materials-and-heating-equipment-notice-7086#installations-of-energy-saving-materials
<<

No Grant Scheme was involved in this install. And I did not bother looking for one . . . . Â£2k for a 5kWh Mitsubishi Single split : installed : customised to hold a room temp of 16C - rather than the 18C std. minimum.

So far : so good

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

WeeBeastie — Tue, 20 Dec 2022 13:50:22 +0000

malakoffee

How do you find the noise levels of the outdoor unit? This is one thing that makes me nervous. I have planning permission for the outdoor unit with the conditions: "50dB(A) within external space of any noise sensitive premises" and "42dB(A) 1m from centre point of any neighbouring window serving a habitable room".

The Daikin units I've just looked are rated at 47dB(A) though I don't know how far away that is measured. The window stipulation would probably be fine, but what's to stop my neighbour claiming any space in his garden, only a couple of meters away, is 'noise sensitive'? I am also noise sensitive, btw!

I regularly pass an outdoor unit (of unknown age) and it makes a real racket in cold weather.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

GarethC — Wed, 21 Dec 2022 20:55:08 +0000

I thought the sound pressure rating was at 1m distance from unit

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

owlman — Thu, 22 Dec 2022 12:20:50 +0000

Posted By: GarethCI thought the sound pressure rating was at 1m distance from unit

+1
Usually AFAIK, 1M from the front of the unit and 1.5M above ground.
Modern digital units modulate according to indoor demand, at their optimum (lowest) sound levels they can be barely audible at a couple of metres.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

jms452 — Thu, 22 Dec 2022 20:18:14 +0000

Posted By: WeeBeastieHow do you find the noise levels of the outdoor unit? This is one thing that makes me nervous. I have planning permission for the outdoor unit with the conditions: "50dB(A) within external space of any noise sensitive premises" and "42dB(A) 1m from centre point of any neighbouring window serving a habitable room".

How far away from the unit will your neighbour's 'premises' be?
If the unit is about 50dBA [at 1m] and you have extra distance and or any form of decent fence you're probably fine.

If you were on the edge and your neighbour is difficult enough to get calibrated measurement equipment out to show you were at 51dBA (& this is hard to do properly) you could offer to put up an acoustic fence panel.

We've got one with a max sound pressure level of 49dBA which is pretty quiet, once you include a breeze or any form of other noise nearby it's essentially silent - can't say the same for a gas boiler flue.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

WillInAberdeen — Thu, 22 Dec 2022 20:52:25 +0000

The MCS noise calculation procedure for planning purposes is in MCS 020 section 3

https://mcscertified.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/MCS-020.pdf

If you plug in the dB(A) of your unit and the distance to the neighbours windows or garden, it should tell you the dB level there.

For example if the heatpump is 47dB(A) and mounted at ground level against a wall 2m from the receptor, then deduct 11dB
47-11 = 36dB -> complies

Further deductions are allowed if there's a wall or fence in the way.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

WeeBeastie — Fri, 23 Dec 2022 18:57:03 +0000

Thanks all for help re noise levels. It's about 2m to the neighbour's garden, with a low wall between. I was concerned because it's all hard surfaces at that side of the house, no plants. But from what you say it should be fine. I believe the condition was put on the planning consent only because a different neighbour made a submission saying 'heat pumps are noisy'!

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

malakoffee — Fri, 23 Dec 2022 21:22:25 +0000

My outdoor unit was installed at the back of the bungalow - pointing down (longish) garden.

This meant a 8m pipe-run outside, between the units.

Minimising the pipe-run best for efficiency . . . .and A.n.other Installer was intending to stick an outside unit on the side of the house ( a mere 2.5 metres between our houses )

I'm glad I chose the back-of-bungalow :-

- When the outside temperature was below Zero it was generating a noticeable fan hum.
As the beneficiary of the heat, I found this quite acceptable . . . The brain is great at selectively filtering.
However, I am much content that I have avoided ALL possibility of a neighbour becoming sensitive to this ( if I had it installed on the side ).

- Another consideration : the noticeably colder plume of air blown by the fan - which travels a good few metres.
I would certainly NOT appreciate my neighbour blowing cold air on the walls/windows of my house ( or Hot air in summer ).

Having said that : as time passes there are bound ever increasing numbers of Heat Pumps in our neighbourhoods. Such points of sensitivity will have be tolerated ( to a greater degree ).

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

jamesingram — Thu, 26 Jan 2023 17:26:32 +0000

Any pointer to a good manufacture and supplier of A2A HPs
cheers

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

Simon Still — Fri, 27 Jan 2023 15:59:14 +0000

A friend has just fitted a Daiken unit that is very discreet internally and (when I've had a look at it) inaudible above background noise on our city street.

The internal unit is particularly smart

https://www.daikin.co.uk/en_gb/product-group/air-to-air-heat-pumps/stylish.html

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

owlman — Fri, 27 Jan 2023 17:32:23 +0000

Any of the big names in the field are worth considering; Daikin, Toshiba, Mitsubishi, Panasonic. They all deliver broadly the same features. Different "F" gas fitters like different brands and service back up is of course important. I'd go for aesthetics of the indoor units coupled with control flexibility and indoor unit noise. Also look at things like filtration. Personally, I'd stay away from lesser known brands, but then I like the peace of mind.

I've been delighted with my Toshiba ducted unit, in fact can't fault it. I've looked at installing another 2 or 3 split wall hung system in another part of the house that proved too difficult for ducting installation. In this case I may go for Panasonic. This is based purely on physical internal unit sizes that suit a couple of the locations better.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

PeterStarck — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 08:29:58 +0000

Posted By: owlmanI've been delighted with my Toshiba ducted unit, in fact can't fault it.

We have an old oil heating system in an old solid stone walled bungalow. We are considering replacing it with an A2A system. As it's a bungalow I don't think there would be a problem installing such a system. Would you mind sharing details of your layout and the size etc of your system.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

owlman — Tue, 31 Jan 2023 13:39:53 +0000

Hi Peter,
Were You thinking ducted, with warm air delivery through wall or ceiling registers or; indoor wall hung/low level/ceiling mount in various rooms?

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

PeterStarck — Wed, 01 Feb 2023 09:04:28 +0000

Posted By: owlmanHi Peter,
Were You thinking ducted, with warm air delivery through wall or ceiling registers or; indoor wall hung/low level/ceiling mount in various rooms?

We were considering both. I've found out information about the systems with wall mounted units but I've not been able to find out much about ducted systems feeding ceiling vents. Also most of the A2A systems I've found out about have been in newer properties and I was wondering what type of house you had.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

owlman — Wed, 01 Feb 2023 13:23:09 +0000

We live in a brick and 125mm thermalite cavity walled, under pantile, roofed bungalow built 84. It's double glazed throughout with underfloor 60mm styrofoam insulation. The whole roof area is split, with half the house being purlin and rafter, for future bedroom and landing conversion, and the other half being large Fink trusses.

The trussed area with open plan living area beneath is where I've put the ducted A/A. It has two supply and two return ceiling registers with filter medium. The central truss triangle, is quite large at over 4M high x 3+M wide x 6M long. It's this area where I placed the single ( rafter suspended ), air delivery indoor unit with rigid flow and return ducting radiating from this.
The downstairs of the front ( purlin and rafter), half of the house is where I propose to install a second three split A/A system
Any more questions just ask, and I'll try and answer.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

PeterStarck — Wed, 01 Feb 2023 16:39:20 +0000

Posted By: owlmanAny more questions just ask, and I'll try and answer.

Many thanks for your help, it's really useful. When you say it has two supply and two return, what are the return ducts for? I've just looked at a Toshiba RAV-SM1606BTP-E and it has the option of four 200mm discharge spigots. Do you happen to know if you can split each of the ducts into two with a Y piece so creating eight ducts. That would be more useful for us as we have several small rooms.

This seems like good news for Air to Air heat pumps

owlman — Wed, 01 Feb 2023 17:59:40 +0000

The ducted indoor units are simply a large metal box with a a radiator of sorts through which the refrigerant flows. Behind this is a fan which blows the warmed or cooled air out through a large opening.
In my case capturing and directing that air is done through a plenum box. I had that fabricated because of the duct sizes I was using. Some manufacturers may supply these as stock.
Similarly on the backside of the indoor unit is another plenum bringing in the return air. Once that air is pushed out or returned, it can come from numerous sources. In my case two out and two in. So yes, you are right, with "Y" pieces you can create your own floor plan. The duct diameter sizing, large at the indoor unit end, and diminishing towards the registers is the real black art in this type of system and a careful plan needs to be drawn up.

P.S.
The reason I put both return plenum and return registers was to extract the warm room air back into the indoor unit which I filtered at the registers. This pre-warmed return air supply means that the indoor unit and the compressor isn't working so hard. The constant air circulation around the large open plan area is also beneficial.