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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
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Politics: Xmas shopping, tax-paying alternatives to Amazon etc.

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    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: Seret
    Posted By: Jonti

    The fact is they are making a profit on their turnover in this country and should pay their fair share in


    That's fine, except that "a fair share" is a pretty non-specific figure. In reality they can only be made to pay what the rules say they have to.


    I agree Seret on the legal side but I was comenting on the moral side and you can not compell doing the moral thing it is something the person does because they feel it is right. I know it is modern to say if it is legal then its alright even if it is morally wrong but I just disagree with this.

    Jonti
  2.  
    Hi,
    Don't you think it's a bit strange that the only people not given a hard time were the total idiot's who came up with the most complicated tax regime imaginable. In the US the tax book runs to some 11,000 pages - thats not a typing error. In the UK our tax book runs to thousands of pages as well. It is reckoned in this country Six billion pounds a year are spent on accountants. It is also a form of government corruption in a race to the bottom. The UK government stated it was keeping corporation tax low (20%)to encourage companies to incorporate in the UK. Ireland trumped this with 12% corporation tax specifically set to encourage incorporation in Ireland.
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: Jonti
    I know it is modern to say if it is legal then its alright even if it is morally wrong but I just agree with this.


    Again, I think you misrepresent my position if you're suggesting that's what I'm saying.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2012
     
    Could we tax immorality, or reward morality. Could start with a voluntary 'moral' tax that is reclaimed by a chosen charity. Actually I think we have that.

    If we had no corporation tax, would UK PLC raise more money that it currently does with the 20% CT in place. Would 'foreign' companies set up there head offices here?

    And purely out of interest, do farmers that have large windfarms/solar farms have to pay a different business rate (a tax by any other name). I have no idea how much rates are payable by large electrical generators (or small ones for that matter) when it is the primary business. If the rates (and cash per land area/MWh or whatever) are different, why is this and should it be the case?
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2012
     
    Posted By: Seret
    Posted By: Jonti
    I know it is modern to say if it is legal then its alright even if it is morally wrong but I just agree with this.


    Again, I think you misrepresent my position if you're suggesting that's what I'm saying.


    I was not suggesting this was your view point just restating mine.

    ST,

    :shocked::crazy::updown::boogie::clap:

    Don't know the answers but good post!

    Jonti
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2012
     
    Thank you.

    Tired now so off to bed.
    • CommentAuthorwookey
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2012 edited
     
    I've only recently stopped boycotting Amazon from the last time they were being immoral money-grabbing wankers:

    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/amazon.html

    (They patened '1-click shopping' and tried to get other internet sellers to pay them for it).

    On the current issue I think far to many people have forgotten that the purpose of companies is for people to work together to make a living on a job more effectively/efficiently done as a collective than as individual craftspeople. The company does not exist for itself, only for its workers, and (if shares are sold) for its shareholders - noting that it's _and_ shareholders, not '_or_ shareholders'.

    This is why companies, and people in them, should be help to the same moral standards as people. They are nothing more than collections of people working co-operatively. The idea that companies are entirely amoral and should do whatever makes their shareholders the most money is wrong and bad, yet surprisingly prevalent; some idiots will even tell you that it is the law in the US, which simply isn't true and never has been.

    So, if you see a company behaving badly don't be afraid to say so, not least to people working there. (Apple for example have behaving shockingly over the last year and currently head my personal 'scumbag outfit' list, well OK, after various shysters in the PPI industry.

    Yes seret, it's quite obvious _why_ companies carefully arrange baroque schemes to minimise their overall international tax - it's quite rational, but if one thinks that's not fair or reasonable then one is absolutely right to hold them to behaviour one thinks is acceptable. I'm very pleased to see 'society', helped by organisations like 38degrees, making its views known.

    A similar campaign was waged over profits from olympic games advertising - where there tax exemptions for partner companies: http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/ethicalcampaigns/taxjusticecampaign/payyourfairshare.aspx
    (or for more details): http://blog.38degrees.org.uk/2012/07/30/that-olympic-tax-wheeze/

    Getting pension companies to have a bit of moral fibre in investment practice would be a good thing too IMHO. This stuff matters.
    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2012
     
    Posted By: wookeyif one thinks that's not fair or reasonable then one is absolutely right to hold them to behaviour one thinks is acceptable.


    That's kind of my point. What is "fair"? Clearly the spirit of the law is that they should be paying more than they do, even if the letter allows them to do otherwise.

    What can we do other than force these companies to comply with the letter of the law? And close any drastic loopholes? I'm a pragmatist, and I think that in the real world you have to accept that fiddling the finances is always going to widespread. The question is how much of it do you tolerate, and how much do you clamp down on. I don't really see that as a moral issue. It's a constant cat and mouse between free enterprise and the revenuers, and as such one side or the other may have the advantage at any one particular time. Best you can hope for is a good balance on average IMO.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2012 edited
     
    Posted By: SeretThe question is how much of it do you tolerate
    There is a whole lot of work done in the social sciences about this very point.
    We can all tolerate a small amount of bad behaviour in society be it be it drink driving, littering, illegal developments etc. It is only when we think that it is impacting on our quality of life that we feel something should be done about it. That is when disproportional action is taken though. An example of this is the rules about storing texts and email data and metadata. All done in the name of preventing serious crime, so they are going to let the local councils have the powers to view it.
    Personally I think that the amount of driving I save by using Amazon is well worth the tax they don't pay, probably the electricity saved on all the empty shops in Penzance is worth it alone (but there are now 2 EE shops instead of the larger T-Mobile one and the smaller Orange one).:wink:
  10.  
    thought I'd resurrect this one.
    I've been trying to buy all my xmas presents in walking distance from my house the last few years . Works fine, especially as my wife does most of it by car anyway and she thinks I'm doing it because I'm lazy
    Truth is the stuff I'm buying might still have come from China . Am I engaging in a pointless nonsense ?:confused:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
     
    Yes, christmas is pointless nonsense. I shall be at Landsend with the usual people that avoid it.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
     
    Yes ST, I have spent new year at lands end to get away from the masses but it is so commercialised its almost worse that Christmas!!!!
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
     
    Can't comment on Landsend on New Years Day, Christmas day it is closed, so only the curmudgeonly gits like me there.
    Try going to the most southerly point in the UK mainland, The Lizard, on New Years Day, that is pretty good, if you clamber over the rocks at 12:25PM you will be the person who is the furthest south in the UK, except for me that is. There are two cafes there, the blue one that is higher up is the best view.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
     
    Posted By: SteamyTea.......... I shall be at Landsend with the usual people that avoid it.

    Not jumping off I hope Steamy, Please don't, we'll miss you. :bigsmile::wink:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 16th 2013
     
    20 odd years ago you could go on the rope bridge but it is closed now.
    I stood there in 1990 when a storm was on and got very wet :bigsmile:
  16.  
    I'm still interested to see any convincing evidence that Amazon are dodging tax, none having been produced to date.

    Especially as most of the critics seem to be quite happy selling their books through Amazon.

    Anyhoo, people wanting to support Ethical Consumer should also remember that you are requested to boycott:

    Alaska
    Botswana
    Canada (sorry, Paul)
    China
    Israel
    Japan
    Mauritius

    British Heart Foundation

    Barclays
    HSBC
    London Victoria (who own the building where Heckler&Koch have their UK office)
    RBS

    ASDA,
    The Body Shop
    Boots
    H&M
    Harrods
    KFC
    Kelloggs
    Nestle
    P&G
    Starbucks (the Occupy lot will be furious)
    Superdrug
    Tesco
    Unilever

    EDF

    and many more.
    http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/boycotts/boycottslist.aspx

    :bigsmile:

    Ferdinand
  17.  
    Not to mention all British diary products because of badger culling. Pass me a large container of salt please.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
     
    Posted By: ferdinand2000Alaska
    Is there a repeat of Northern Exposure on again.

    Posted By: ferdinand2000Canada (sorry, Paul)
    Not hard to do

    Posted By: ferdinand2000RBS
    No need to, their IT department does it for them

    Posted By: ferdinand2000KFC
    As above, but the serving staff. I actually have a letter form them that does not inspire me to go back to one of their outlets.

    So glad I am having dirt out of my back garden for lunch, no nutritional value and hardly any calories, but my conscience is clear as I have a no dig policy, as well as a no man made chemical policy, flowers, worms, mowing, but the bamboo may be from China, my plate is China as is my tea mug:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013 edited
     
    I presume by the various comments, that using ones purchasing power is not considered a useful way to express a view or attempt to encourage a more ethical ways of carrying out commerce ?
    Strange, I was under the impression this is probably the only power we have left in our conspicuous consumer society :wink:

    Somebody tell the Co-op they've been wasting their time for the last 150 years :shocked:
  20.  
    Not at all James; my comment was about the ethical consumer.org list or rather the incredibly broad assumptions/ exclusions/justifications used - unless you support a veto of all UK dairy produce on the grounds of the, admittedly despicable, badger cull? As for ST, well as you know, he is just randomly flippant and as it nears Xmas I am sure he will 'entertain' us across the entire Forum, won't you ST :wink:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
     
    No I won't, Christmas is a time for families, thankfully mine are hundreds of miles away :wink:

    Odd about the Dairy Farming, doing my ResM in just that area and not once have I heard badgers mentioned.

    I think James' point about voting with your wallet is a valid one, but remember that many people put a price on their time.
    How much is ethical purchasing actually worth in cash terms? It is more than the difference in purchase price.
    • CommentAuthormarktime
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
     
    ST: "How much is ethical purchasing actually worth in cash terms? " Isn't that the oxymoron that's the elephant in this discussion?

    In other words, how much more are you willing to pay for your purchase as against this weeks "bargain", not to feel hypocritically righteous but because you have something worthwhile in your character.

    How old fashioned and out of date I seem to myself.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
     
    Not sure I understand your reply, but I like it :bigsmile:
  24.  
    I was thinking more about the 'not purchasing' side of things.
    • CommentAuthorGotanewlife
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: jamesingramI was thinking more about the 'not purchasing' side of things

    I agree - but if there isn't the choice, then one must pay more elsewhere. Perhaps we could support the French dairy industry, I guess they don't cull badgers and they are the closest alternative.
  26.  
    My general experience of people purchasing preferences, is that they seem far happy to pay for objects than they are for others time or skills ( even though those object cost obviously includes peoples time and skill ) unless of course those skill are particularly envogue , as I think Bella mention in another thread re. artist etc.
  27.  
    Posted By: Gotanewlife
    Posted By: jamesingramI was thinking more about the 'not purchasing' side of things

    I agree - but if there isn't the choice, then one must pay more elsewhere. Perhaps we could support the French dairy industry, I guess they don't cull badgers and they are the closest alternative.
    Not to sure the about the French record on animal welfare. I was under the impression it was a little 'less concerned' than the Brits ?
    • CommentAuthorjamesingram
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013 edited
     
    To pay more for something of higher values seems fair. But what's Value ?
    A product brought to market that's production and supply chain is more considerate towards those involved in the process and the environment in which it exists and the final consumer seems to be to be of higher value , has more worth and may therefore be more expensive.
    If we amass wealth purely for conspicuous consumption does that really have any power to it ? I think directed wealth has far more potential for power.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
     
    What do you mean by wealth? Wealth and Income (or expenditure) are not the same thing.
    • CommentAuthorCerisy
    • CommentTimeDec 17th 2013
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: jamesingram</cite><blockquote><cite>Posted By: Gotanewlife</cite><blockquote spellcheck="true" aria-posinset="0" aria-level="0" aria-setsize="0"><cite spellcheck="true" aria-posinset="0" aria-level="0" aria-setsize="0">Posted By: jamesingram</cite>I was thinking more about the 'not purchasing' side of things</blockquote>
    I agree - but if there isn't the choice, then one must pay more elsewhere. Perhaps we could support the French dairy industry, I guess they don't cull badgers and they are the closest alternative.</blockquote>Not to sure the about the French record on animal welfare. I was under the impression it was a little 'less concerned' than the Brits ?</blockquote>

    Excuse me - my local Normandy farmer is amazing and looks after his cows very well ... and he will block every road, supermarket, milk depot, etc, in the area if you keep spreading those awful rumours!!

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