Can anyone tell me the level of danger in having insulated backed plasterboard in a well heated room ?
Looking at the plasterboard my builder has used, I was surprised to see what looks like thick polysyrene
type stuff attached to the back of the gypsum board. . I know for a fact that polystyrene is highly toxic. Is this stuff of similar composition ?

. I would be most interested to know ASAP. If there is any cause for concern, as I would far rather ditch the stuff, than be toasty warm and poisoned !

I am aware that there is an amount of outgassing with kingspan / celotex foil covered pheonolic board. ( which has already been installed ) however this will have a good quality vapour barrier to protect
from any emissions. The insulated plasterboard will have no such shield.

Other than the plasterboard and skim or tape and joint finish plus a few coats of paint - any potential off gassing is going to be into your ventilated void Storm.

If you have a fire then you are likley to be outside long before teh combustion products get to a toxic level.

Beyond that, it's a personal choice based on your view of how toxic polystyrene really is

Regards

Barney

Posted By: stormI know for a fact that polystyrene is highly toxic.

No it's not, it's inert unless you heat it until it burns or decomposes. "Plastic glasses" are often made of polystyrene. It's also deemed safe enough for food packaging:

Based on scientific tests over five decades, government safety agencies have determined that polystyrene is safe for use in foodservice products. For example, polystyrene meets the stringent standards of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration and the European Commission/European Food Safety Authority for use in packaging to store and serve food. The Hong Kong Food and Environmental Hygiene Department recently reviewed the safety of serving various foods in polystyrene foodservice products and reached the same conclusion as the U.S. FDA.[36]

Polycarbonates have come under scrutiny recently because they are made from BPA (bisphenol A) which has been shown to act like estrogen.

Polyisocyanurate boards also are made from methylene diphenyl diisocyanate which is more of a problem, but is still classed as low toxicity.

The blowing agents in foam boards will outgas for sometime, but they are also non-toxic (pentane is often used in polyiso boards).

I wouldn't worry. By the way, many people are highly allergic to the lanolin that's found in sheep's wool.

Paul in Montreal.

Paul , there really is little difference between the FDA and the Mafia.

Wake up, sleepy head, are we on the same planet !

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/11/13/the-fda-is-running-an-extortion-racket.aspx


http://www.naturalnews.com/FDA_corruption.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/024910_the_FDA_food_scientists.html




Btw, I am not allergic to lanolin, ( debatable though as I don't use the stuff ) I am highly allergic, however, to the abuse of any living, breathing sentient creature, makes my heart bleed.

What insulation do you end up with under the floor, Storm

Use that in the wallls and that should allay your concerns

Regards

Barney

Posted By: beelbeebubHowever, given that you are worried about the insulation, I would suggest you rip it all out.

True, you might be spending money uneccesarily and your house will not be as energy efficient, but from your earlier posts, I'm guessing that the small risk of harm from the polystyrene will be a great concern to you.

Good grief ! I'm becoming predictable , Crikey ! anything but that .... " thnks quickly " Umm, I'm considering of taking up .... err.... glue sniffing, yeah, all that lovely chemical concoction swirling around in my brain..... err wonderful !

Yes, my decision is to have the polystyrene backed board removed, but I will stick, reluctantly, with the phenolic.
I made some enquiries, today, into the possibility of wood fibre insulation, but for this particular wall issue, with
the possibility of damp, and no french drain etc, I am going to have to compromise .......

Anyway, got the bloomin' stuff in my floors now. I'm not gonna have all that dug up again !!!

Oh for a truly pure planet ......

Oh for the wings, for the wings of a dove ........

Posted By: jamesingramFrom my novice understanding phenolic is far more unpleasent in environmental terms than expanded polystrene.

Thanks, James, you have really made my bloomin day, cheered me up no end !

....... and yes, I will confess to having had the occassional nibble at the corners of the old phenolic ( at last the shameful secret is revealed folks ! ) stuck in the middle of no-where with no transport, does have the tendency to make a body mighty peckish at times ....

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: joe90</cite>Storm,

You really suprise me that you have not done your homework on materials before getting them installed!!!. It is very obvious from your many posts that you are truly green in your outlook and even anti establishment ....(as long as the BCO agrees!!!!!)

Joe90</blockquote> "


Away with the BCO, away with all the bureaucrats and their petty fogging rules. In with TRUE reform , one that will uphold , and not destroy, the vital and natural resource, that is our planet, our home, our responsibility !

Joe, you are right, guilty as charged, I will confess, I have had to compromise my principles a bit.... In my defense, however, I carefully weighed up the pros and cons, of alternative insulation for the walls. The most suitable was lime rendering, but the insulating capacity would be minimal, and my cottage is almost literally a damp mini freezer,during winter. I really didn't think I was going to make it through last year without some nasty consequences, that’s how bad it got !



The room in question, which is being insulated with the phenolic will be my main living quarters. I have GOT to get it such that it can retain a reasonable level of heat. Look at this way, a dead Eco - Warrior is not much use to the cause! ! ( mind you, having said that, there are a few ...... but that's another story )

Further more, as far as I am aware, from what the builders tell me, it is against building regs to use anything else for insulation purposes, other than phenolic board under the floor. As I have already had this installed there anyway, I may as well go whole hog and have the phenolic foam on the walls too. The outgassing, I believe, is minimal. Far from ideal, admitted, but I tend to feel there is little option.


Of the two evils, I consider polystyrene to far outweigh phenolic both in its detrimental affect of the planet itself , as well as its devastating impact upon human, animal and aquatic life forms.

Please find below some excerpts from an essay which I have discovered in my recent research. I also post a useful and interesting link on what is described as a “ Sensitives “ house.

Well , I’ve news for you folks, we are ALL sensitives !
Sensitive to the impact of unnatural chemicals upon the vital function of our immune systems.

It is simply that some people’s bodies react far quicker than others to these contaminants, Indeed I consider the “ sensitive individuals immunity function, more reliable, stronger, in essence, than the, seemingly average and normal person. As the sensitive gets the warning signs, often immediately, thus he is quickly alerted, and knows to steer clear.

The vast majority of humans, however, will have numerous kinds of dangerous toxins ( care of Big Bucks industry ) build –up within their ~ Naturally Healthy ~ immune systems over years, compromising their joire de vivre , through consistant irritating, inexplicable, debilitating forms of dis – ease. Long term doing irreparable and , often, irreversible, damage to major organs.

It is time we stopped accepting this state of affairs, and take back the power, into our own hands, of how we want ~ Our Planet ~ to be run, But this has to be a COLLECTIVE decision, I cannot do it alone, just one fragile hobbit !

I represent a small minority of awakened individuals looking out upon our very seriously threatened shire……. Without a united front, involving the public at large, against the Sauron-ic crew at the top, we are all in very big trouble in the none too distant future.


EXTRACTS FROM ARTICLE - POLYSTYRENE - STYROFOAM

The toxic dangers of polystyrene have long been kept secret by manufacturers who make billions of dollars each year from their environmentally harmful products. How long will it take us to realize that we should …..
It is frightening to think that we are not only ingesting these chemicals through contamination of our food, but also breathing them in our air. As we can see, the processes used to manufacture Styrofoam are immediately destructive to our health and the environment…….

the polystyrene production process generates the 5th largest amount of toxic waste of any single chemical production process” (9). As a result of these statements and further research by grassroots organizations nationwide, McDonald’s finally backed down and decided to phase out its Styrofoam use and solid waste output by 90% (9). The McToxics campaign is a good example of how seriously this issue has been taken on a national level, at least once, and how powerfully the decisions of large multi-national corporations can affect our environment……


First of all, Styrofoam products are a health hazard. Toxic chemicals leach out of polystyrene product containers into the food they contain and can be detrimental to our health and reproductive systems. Polystyrene production involves the use of two carcinogens (cancer causing agents) benzene and styrene (3). According to research conducted by Mark Dangler, a Cal Poly Chemistry student, for his senior project on styrene leaching from Styrofoam cups, “Several adverse health effects have been attributed to styrene. At exposure levels above 100 parts per million, humans experience acute mucous membrane irritation with the eyes, nose, and throat particularly affected” (5). Dangler goes on to report that increased levels of styrene concentration may cause fatigue, irritation, feelings of inebriation, and a decrease in concentration ability (5). Styrene would be less of a problem if the molecules stayed in our coffee cups, but another study confirmed that “Styrofoam drinking cups leach Styrofoam into the liquids they contain. The cups apparently lose weight during the time they are at use [ . . .] different materials cause some foam to dissolve into the liquid vessel” (9). So in reality, we are ingesting the toxic chemicals that have been proven to leach out of the Styrofoam containers from which we eat and drink.


Furthermore, these findings about health damage and molecule leakage are compounded by styrene’s ongoing presence in the human body. A study by the Foundation for Advancements in Science and Education reported that “styrene had been found in 100 percent of human tissue samples and 100 percent of human nursing mother’s milk samples” (7). These adverse health effects and styrene’s ability to linger as a carcinogen in everyone are alarming. Although the average cup of coffee served in a Styrofoam cup will not immediately affect human health on these levels, the buildup of styrene in the body over time can lead to these negative effects......


Research also indicates that toxic chemicals in polystyrene products can have long-term consequences on the reproductive systems of both men and women. The styrene polymers in polystyrene mimic reproductive sex hormones and inhibit the production of healthy natural sex hormones. The National Health Institute of Japan reported that “one type of toxin [found in polystyrene], known as bisphenol-A […] lowers sperm production in males and reduces the number of full-term pregnancies in females” (11). These extra hormones are ingested when polystyrene chemicals leach from Styrofoam into food products that are then eaten.
Beyond the obvious bad effects on the human body, a further argument in the case against polystyrene is the environmentally destructive process that creates the product. To begin with, polystyrene products are manufactured using petroleum, a substance that is a hot topic in media right now because it is so limited. Petroleum cannot be recycled or renewed and is quickly disappearing worldwide due to our dependence on it for gasoline and manufacturing processes--such as the production of polystyrene. The United States alone produces over 25 billion Styrofoam cups each year using these petroleum-dependent processes (12). With gas prices rising and the war in Iraq partly blamed on our need to control fossil fuel sources, should we really be wasting this precious resource on a product as simple as Styrofoam?
Adding to the petroleum-based debate about polystyrene production is the environmental danger from the chemicals used in manufacturing. Two specific chemicals, known as ……..


A Sensitives House -

http://www.healthyhouseinstitute.com/a_682-Improved_Indoor_Air_Quality_IAQ_in_an_Energy_Efficient_Demonstration_House


Full article - Polystyrene = Styrofoam.

http://cla.calpoly.edu/~smarx/Publications/Moebius/essay%20clare%20johnson.htm

Posted By: storm. The National Health Institute of Japan reported that “one type of toxin [found in polystyrene], known as bisphenol-A […]

Bisphenol-A is the precursor to polycarbonate, not polystyrene. Hence the fear of all those polycarbonate drinking bottles that are so much in vogue these days. And, by the way, phenol is also produced from benzene, the same cancerous precursor that's used to make styrene monomer.

I would think all foam insulations are equally as toxic as each other as they're all formed from some pretty nasty monomers. As to whether these are present in the final polymer is hard to know for sure but I would think that foil-faced foam boards would have the lowest off-gassing potential, no matter what the foam between the foil sheets is.

Paul in Montreal.

So you are going to fit the polystyrene then?

Posted By: stormBill, I am not one to be in thrall to another's worldly status. Qualification does not always equal ~ Quality of information

Storm, I'm curious; if you do not use a persons experience and qualifications as a criteria for deciding the validity of their opinions, what should you use?

If you are about to get in a plane and one person says it is perfectly safe, and the other says it's a deathtrap. Who do you trust? The one with the degree in aeronautical engineering and 30 years experience designing aircraft, or the violin player (profession picked at random)?

Posted By: beelbeebub

Posted By: stormBill, I am not one to be in thrall to another's worldly status. Qualification does not always equal ~ Quality of information

Storm, I'm curious; if you do not use a persons experience and qualifications as a criteria for deciding the validity of

Have you never heard of gross professional negligence ? or professional misconduct ? A multiude of sins can be hidden behind the much lauded title of ~ Professional. Most certainly, the word can be a fully justified commendation, however, it can, just as easily, be a licence to do harm without any to dare oppose.

Profesional pilot or no, beyond his basic training, given the choice, I would want to know character of the man first. Therefore, If he were a highly concientious level headed newbie pilot or many years qualified with all sorts of honours, but when he gets home, he beats his wife and kids, I'd chose the newbie, any day. Ethics aside, instability in a persons psyche can, and often does, spill over into a persons profession, with all sorts of devastating consequences. As for opinions, the opinions within any profession are numerous and diverse.

You only have to look on this forum, to see that !

Hi Storm

If you rip out the polystyrene boards will they go to a landfill?
If you have adequate ventilation the effects of offgassing can be greatly reduced.
Put a second layer of plasterboard over the insulated slabs to get 1 hour fire rating and lower the risk.

Anyone who sends their children off to fight and die for them

<blockquote><cite>Posted By: billt</cite><blockquote><cite>Posted By: storm</cite>
Bill,.</blockquote>


The essay reads like a polemic written with a cursory amount of research, most of which looks as if it has a similarly polemical and unscientific basis. .<blockquote

Bill, given the subject matter, to use the word “ polemic “ , is a bit of an exaggeration. The essay is not an impassioned discourse on religion The writer is denouncing, justifiably and factually, a product which is an environmental health hazard. This is simple and unequivocal common sense. To try and mitigate the extent of the hazard by claiming, as you do, that this substance is only a danger during the production phase, is not only absurd but clearly a biased point of view on your part, not the writers.

Perhaps, your denial is due to the fact that you have this stuff already fitted in your premises. Vested interest is another, possibility, though doubtful. Maybe you are simply desperate to believe that the multi billion pound industry that produces polystyrene, along with similar industries spewing forth the emissions of their various noxious commodities into the atmosphere. HAVE to be right, because …… well, they are the ~ Almighty Established ~ aren’t they, and what do we do without an authority figure to look up to. Never mind their morals or ethical stance. The BIG buck, is ALL , Eh !.

Bill</blockquote>t's quite reasonable to argue that that sort of individualistic attitude is one of the main causes of the over consumption that we suffer today. "I'm special, so I need this to prove that I'm more individual and a higher status than others." Sorry, but society wouldn't function if there weren't a lot of people who were prepared to do the menial jobs that a lot of people wouldn't be seen dead doing (building maybe!), i.e. drones according to your definition. If all these people truly thought for themselves and acted on their thoughts society wouldn't be structured as it is today. Humanity has got were it is through cooperation .</blockquote>

What ! Where the hell has humanity got then !!! ??? We are in the midst of a dying environment. Surrounded, on all sides by war, disease, famine, and devastation of the natural resource of this planet , on unprecedented scale, and you applaud this ?

Bill, you have become myopic , stunted, in your comfortable little westernized bubble. You think we’ve got it good ? believe me things will not remain afloat for very much longer unless enough of the general public can pull together toward true sustainability and adherence to higher principles.



True individualism is not an “ attitude “ neither is it a fashion. It is an advanced state of being, which does not subscribe to the dictates of a system run by power obsessed maniacs, a system which is based upon the, destruction of the natural environment to serve its own greedy, and nihilistic agenda. The highest form of individualism takes one far beyond the limitated views and actions of this world. Into Universal consciousness, of which this planet is just one infinitesimal part, struggling to rise. So let it rise, and ~ Rise, with it, instead of holding every one down with your conformist views.





Bill / > < blockquote /
I don't deny that polystyrene can cause problems. No doubt it can be hazardous during manufacture, you may not like the fact that it uses petroleum products as a feedstock. And I've no doubt that the bits of it that end up in the environment aren't particularly desirable. I'm afraid that I have a lot of problems with a lot of aspects of the "ecological movement", however I've been interested in the environment and fuel conservation from well before the 1970s oil crisis. I take the reduction of energy use seriously, and have since I was a child. The house that we now live in was bought 20 years ago. As it needed a lot of work doing on it we put in 200mm of insulation in the roof and internal insulated some of the internal walls were it was practicable to do so (using polystyrene backed plaster board, as it happens.) At the time insulating solid walls was considered a lunatic activity and 100mm of loft insulation was considered to be a lot; we now have 540mm in the loft, which is well over the top. I've installed a gasifying log-boiler with 2,500l thermal store - to burn my own, sustainably grown wood. I am installing solar thermal panels and a hydro turbine or two. I'm adding a bit more floor and wall insulation to a room that didn't get renovated the first time round. I've done most of the work myself.

10 years ago I built 2 strawbale sheds as temporary accommodation, .......></blockquote


The only part of your rather sad and nieve diatribe, that I find inspiring is the obvious effort and ecological commitment which you made, early on in life, to your property. ( not as a bleating sheep but of your own initiative, full marks ! ) This shows breadth of mind, a persevering spirit and “ potential “ for growth of vision.

However, the majority of your comments, show just how skewed and seriously lacking your assessment is of the dire situation we are all faced with right now, as well as what is needed to resolve this damn mess. As your outlook is that of the vast majority, it is a very worrying prospect indeed.